Darryl Keil Last Activity 2024-04-17 6:18 AM
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Aaron Paris

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Subject : Cross band gluing option
Posted : 2017-03-09 7:44 PM
Post #37564

I have a tabletop where the show veneer is a combination of walnut crotch and walnut burl. I would like to cross band the veneer face but I am not sure my procedure is the right one. My thought.... press the top and bottom of the substrate at the same time , wait an hour remove from the bag and then press the show face veneer and the underside veneer at the same time and then leave project in the bag for several hours. I am using particle board and Titebond extend glue for this piece. Thanks Aaron


 
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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Cross band gluing option
Posted : 2017-03-10 7:36 AM
Post #37565 - In reply to #37564

My first question is , why do you want to cross band in the first place? Cross banding is great but not always necessary, do you need to?

If you do cross band I would definitely wait longer than an hour before going back in with the face veneer. If it was me I would press the face veneer the next day after the panel has had some time to dry out.


 
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Aaron Paris

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Subject : RE: Cross band gluing option
Posted : 2017-03-10 9:42 AM
Post #37566 - In reply to #37565

With this table and this client I wanted to have all my bases covered. I usually don't cross band, I hear a lot of guys doing that as an extra precaution against movement and joint creep. My supplier encourage me to go this route.( maybe to sell more veneer) I also thought it would be a good chance to experiment but I also respect the opinions and advice here and if you don't think it's necessary I trust that.


 
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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Cross band gluing option
Posted : 2017-03-10 10:32 AM
Post #37567 - In reply to #37566

Yes, cross banding is often recommended as the best insurance for stability, so it never hurts to do it. I've heard a number times its really great to cross band mahogany crotch...the ornery veneer that it is. I like a backer grade mahogany for my cross banding work. Nice and stable.




 
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Don Stephan

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Subject : RE: Cross band gluing option
Posted : 2017-03-12 2:26 PM
Post #37581 - In reply to #37566

A gauge for glue thickness that has worked for me is after spreading an even layer, drag a finger through the glue while pressing down lightly on the surface. If a slight ridge of glue forms on each side of the finger the glue thickness should be about right. I use a black foam roller pad to spread the urea formaldehyde UH), and another indicator of glue thickness is whether little ridges form on the glue surface behind the roller, and how quickly they lay back down. If the glue is too thick the ridges are more pronounced and slower to lay back down.

When I first started using UH, I made several test pressings (it was also my first time working with veneer), carefully weighing how much glue I started with, how much was left on tools and equipment, and then by subtracting how much I was spreading on the substrate per square foot. I even compared what seemed to be the ideal amount per square foot separately for MDF and baltic birch substrates. This also helps when planning a project, to see if I need to order more. Occasionally I have to add a bit more, but the effort gets me in the ballpark, and I always watch behind the roller.

Instead of setting the furnace back, the evening before a pressing I'll bump the thermostat to 70°F, set up the bag, platen, vacuum pump, and electric blanket, and make sure the bag and pump hold vacuum and the blanket works. The next morning, first think I'll turn on the blanket to begin warming the platen.

One added point, I only roll UF on one of the two surfaces, the substrate, or if I'm making a two ply to be glued to the substrate the next day to the upper surface of the backer ply. I never apply UF to the glue side of the show veneer.


 
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Aaron Paris

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Subject : RE: Cross band gluing option
Posted : 2017-03-12 9:17 PM
Post #37582 - In reply to #37581

I didn't see this reply before. Sorry Don. Those are some really helpful tips. I have become comfortable with pva and change is always difficult but I hope it's all for the better. Thanks Don.


 
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Don Stephan

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Subject : RE: Cross band gluing option
Posted : 2017-03-10 11:41 AM
Post #37568 - In reply to #37564

You might consider a test pressing first if using this type of glue. I'm not sure whether Titebond or urea formaldehyde would have a greater risk of water swelling the veneer, especially ornery mahogany.


 
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Aaron Paris

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Subject : RE: Cross band gluing option
Posted : 2017-03-10 12:05 PM
Post #37569 - In reply to #37568

I had planned on using quarter cut walnut as the cross band material so there was minimal movement. I agree with the swell factor and had planned on doing a test.


 
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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Cross band gluing option
Posted : 2017-03-11 11:59 AM
Post #37570 - In reply to #37569

Don makes a good point about considering urea resin glue. If what you want is maximum veneer stability and minimal movement you might want to consider urea glue. Its much more rigid and overall better than yellow glue.


 
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Aaron Paris

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Subject : RE: Cross band gluing option
Posted : 2017-03-11 3:09 PM
Post #37571 - In reply to #37570

Deep down I know that to be true but I am very apprehensive about the urea. I hear of what can go wrong if all avenues are not followed correctly. Where as with the pva it will always stick. I don't mean to argue I am just nervous about urea.


 
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Don Stephan

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Subject : RE: Cross band gluing option
Posted : 2017-03-11 3:18 PM
Post #37572 - In reply to #37571

May I ask what you have heard? I've used it for years.


 
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Aaron Paris

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Subject : RE: Cross band gluing option
Posted : 2017-03-11 9:16 PM
Post #37574 - In reply to #37572

Bleed through
Press time dependent on temperature
Amount of resin applied to successfully adhere veneer
Granted these same issues somewhat follow pva as well it just seems less likely to fail. But that's just it, Don you have used this product for years. But did you start with urea or did you slowly switch over from pva? And what made you switch?


 
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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Cross band gluing option
Posted : 2017-03-11 3:19 PM
Post #37573 - In reply to #37571

I understand your concerns. You might want to try some on a sample. The key to Urea glue is heat...more the better. Failures almost always occur when pressing too close to the minimum required temperature. I tell all my customers to get a household elelctric blanket, put it on top of the bag with another blanket on top of it and you'll never have issues. Its really the superior glue for veneering.


 
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Aaron Paris

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Subject : RE: Cross band gluing option
Posted : 2017-03-11 9:20 PM
Post #37575 - In reply to #37573

Does the heat transfer through evenly so that the bottom of the piece is cured at the same time as the top which is closest to the heat?


 
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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Cross band gluing option
Posted : 2017-03-12 8:52 AM
Post #37576 - In reply to #37575

Although the heat will make it through to the other side I pre-warm the back side of the panel sometimes, (depending how cold my shop is) so the down side will get heat in the beginning. Or, I will simply put the electric blanket on the bag, platen and bottom caul ahead of time which will then radiate the heat back up into the panel when I press it. Because an electric blanket is relatively low heat its not that important if the glue lines catalyze at exactly the same time.

As far as amount of glue applied, urea glue is actually more forgiving than a PVA. Because urea is a chemical reaction type glue it can handle a thicker glue line if you over glue a bit. Better than PVA which is predominately an absorbtion bond. Also, over gluing with PVA can result in the veneer wrinkling from excessive moisture. Of course, no glue compensates for undergluing.

If you decide to use urea glue ours can be gotten with a bleed through blocker additive to minimize bleed through. In fact our PVA glue has a bleed through blocker as well.

I don't mean to make it sound like one should only use urea glue with veneers, never PVA. I use PVA glue plenty. In your case, you're using a burl and a crotch, the two veneers, (more than any others) I would use urea glue for. These veneers are not overly stable, prone to cracking and fizzuring, especially crotch. Due to the rigidity of urea glue these issues are stopped or at least minimized. Of course, epoxy or polyurethane can be used for this as well I just don't like their messiness.


 
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Aaron Paris

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Subject : RE: Cross band gluing option
Posted : 2017-03-12 12:54 PM
Post #37580 - In reply to #37576

That's a great reply Darryl. My shop averages around 68 so the heating blanket will be a must. I think I will give this try and see how some sample pressings turn out. Thank you Darryl.


 
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Aaron Paris

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Subject : RE: Cross band gluing option
Posted : 2017-04-10 9:47 AM
Post #37595 - In reply to #37580

Well my test pressings with Unibond 800 have been successful. The old saying holds true, don't knock it till you try it. I really like the way the urea spreads on the surface and it also seems like you are more connected in the whole process when you have to mix your own glue! All the tips that were given were very helpful. Thanks Aaron


 
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Darryl Keil

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Location: Maine

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Subject : RE: Cross band gluing option
Posted : 2017-04-10 11:42 AM
Post #37597 - In reply to #37595

Glad to hear that your test went well. The glueing part of veneering or laminating can be a little nerve racking. You put all this work into preparing your project for pressing, and whether its a success or failure happens in the bag where you don't have any control over what's happening.


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