Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-02-12 2:48 PM
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Dwolf

Posts: 34

Joined: 2008-07-24

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Subject : Bleaching Veneer ?
Posted : 2008-07-24 6:58 PM
Post #34780

Somehow my gut feeling is this is not a good thing.. I have a client who wants as white as possible doors on a cabinet. I certainly do not want any white wash.. Curly Maple or Curly Sycamore are pretty white, but maybe not enough for her.. I know of pre died veneers, but I know of folks how say "STAY AWAY FROM THEM"
I thought was to lay up the veneer and then bleach it.. ??
Any comments on that... Thanks


 
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Darryl Keil

Posts: 1454

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

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Subject : RE: Bleaching Veneer ?
Posted : 2008-07-24 7:55 PM
Post #34781 - In reply to #34780

The pre-dyed white veneers seem to be prone to staining and somewhat ornery to work with. The only glue I would use for them is a regular PVA glue with no cross linker. This means no Titebond 2 or 3 as they have cross linkers in them.

Bleaching does work well but you are flushing with water and two separate water based chemicals so the only glues I would consider are epoxy, polyurethane or urea resin. These glues can stand up to all the water you will be using.

Sincerely
Darryl Keil


 
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Jeff Patrick


Joined: 2004-04-15
Location: Bainbridge Island, WA

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Subject : RE: Bleaching Veneer ?
Posted : 2008-07-24 8:01 PM
Post #34782 - In reply to #34780

Finishing to keep it white is the trick. I have bleached ash. Before the finish it's a beautiful bleached bone color... very desirable. Then when we sprayed on nitro lacquer, it turned green. Had to strip and stain with white pickling stain. This was in bygone days before the water-bourn finishes had developed to the quality products they are now. I'd say to experiment a good deal with bleach and finishes. The two-part bleach kit is the way to go. Personally, I'd think veneering first and bleaching second would be the correct sequence. Jeff Jewitt and Homestead Finishing may have some suggestions on how to bleach and finish.


 
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Steven Kenzer

Posts: 57

Joined: 2008-07-16
Location: Putney, VT

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Subject : RE: Bleaching Veneer ?
Posted : 2008-07-24 8:39 PM
Post #34783 - In reply to #34780

You might consider checking out "Holly". I did a job quite awhile ago with this and was amazed at the clarity of the white tone. It had a velvety, ivory like appearance to my eyes. Is it a pure white? Not really. It's certainly easier then the bleaching process. A water clear lacquer would be the only way to keep this color from shifting over time. "Certainly Wood" typically has some of this in stock. Good luck.






 
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Don Stephan

Posts: 825

Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: Bleaching Veneer ?
Posted : 2008-07-27 9:53 AM
Post #34786 - In reply to #34780

My first question is whether the potential income is worth the risks? Lots of time experimenting, little likelihood of using the knowledge gained on future jobs to help pay back for the experimenting.

I'd offer maple and holly samples coated with non-yellowing finish with UV protection I've had in direct sunlight for a couple weeks and graciously back out if not good enough, unless the customer wants to pay for research time. I've known architects who routinely have a research allowance in contracts that involve work out of their routine realm, lawyers always include allowance for case law research, seems like an appropriate charge here to diplomatically suggest.

Just my two cents.


 
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Dwolf

Posts: 34

Joined: 2008-07-24

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Subject : RE: Bleaching Veneer ?
Posted : 2008-07-27 10:37 AM
Post #34788 - In reply to #34786

Yes for now I'm sticking with a non yellowing finish and offering up Curly Sycamore, or Holly.. No bleaching


 
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Freddy

Posts: 1

Joined: 2008-07-31
Location: massachusetts

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Subject : RE: Bleaching Veneer ?
Posted : 2008-07-31 8:45 PM
Post #34801 - In reply to #34788

I just finish a test piece for a client. I bleached an ash top. i did have a couple of places were the veneer came loose (edges)but was able to fix.
I was also concern about the bleach process but so far so good. I am going to wait one week before I can safely say "it works"


 
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Jeff Patrick


Joined: 2004-04-15
Location: Bainbridge Island, WA

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Subject : RE: Bleaching Veneer ?
Posted : 2008-07-28 3:31 PM
Post #34791 - In reply to #34786

Don,

From my perspective, experimentation is part of the custom furniture game. I think in of the past dozen or so projects I've taken on, there has been something that I needed to figure out. I would expect a client ordering a custom piece to expect the maker to know a good deal about finishes. Bleaching/pickling wood isn't all that uncommon and should be within the reach of even small shops. (My shop is very small.... just me.) Even without any prior experience, I believe that an hour of experimentation with bleach would yield a good deal of knowledge. At least enough to know if the process is feasible for the project and if it results in the look the designer wants. This knowledge can be called upon again and again. I really don't think there is a lot of risk.

Two cents back at cha'.


 
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Don Stephan

Posts: 825

Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: Bleaching Veneer ?
Posted : 2008-08-03 10:13 AM
Post #34802 - In reply to #34791

Jeff:

Your summary is very good and is one with which I agree. The situation presented, though, sounds as if the client's wishes will be a moving target requiring a number of test panels. When the client seems to be saying "I'll know what I want when I see it" but can't or won't help narrow the focus then I feel the need to gently broach the boundaries of "free" research. I expect to spend on average $10 on veneer and an hour of labor to make a test panel for proposals, but that hour quickly is eaten up by order time, trimming and gluing, staining and finishing.

If bleaching is being considered and it's new to me, I'll first try the bleaching process with some on-hand leftover veneer. The first concern will be glue bleed-through. I'd have to try either Unibond with Blocker, or Pro-Glue with its white catalyst, OR BOTH. After bleaching, I'd certainly want to apply a full finishing schedule to confirm bleaching doesn't affect the finish products. As you point out, that's just general background investment. If that works out okay, then repeat with two or three different veneers to try to get the look the client is seeking. But there has to be recovery of some of that additional experimentation, either because the proposal is felt likely to be accepted and the job will be large enough to justify the additional time and materials, or because the client is willing to pay for some of the additional experimentation if the proposal is iffy or the scope of the job would be small.

On back-to-back jobs this spring, I lost my shirt. The first was because my "test panel" was not large enough to realistically simulate the possible problems during finishing. The second was because a 1/2" poured epoxy coating was not at all as quick nor as simple as the manufacturer said. I did not thoroughly research the poured epoxy process because of the cost of materials and time required, and lost an additional three days on a project that was from the start bid too tight because I wanted to help the client.

Now I expect to make an "average" investment of time and materials for proposal development, but share with the client how much of an investment I can afford to make and explore with him or her options to cover any cost beyond.




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