Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-02-12 2:48 PM
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MWJ

Posts: 2

Joined: 2008-09-24

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Subject : Backer veneer
Posted : 2008-09-24 6:51 PM
Post #34945
I am making some bow front drawers with 6 x 1/8" Mahogany laminations. On the face I am using some Mahogany crotch veneer I have. Do I need a backer veneer since the face will be thinner (.042" ?




 
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Don Stephan

Posts: 825

Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: Backer veneer
Posted : 2008-09-24 8:10 PM
Post #34946 - In reply to #34945
I'll take a stab, realizing I may have mis-interpreted your question.

Generally the recommendation I see is to always two ply crotch and burl veneer as they are so delicate. The real sophisticated users will sand the show face of the crotch when the two ply first comes out of the bag as that is the last time the veneer will be flat. Immediately after sanding, if I understand correctly, they then glue the two ply onto the lamination without allowing overnight curing of the adhesive within the two ply.

This is setting up a cross-grain situation since you are veneering onto a solid wood lamination (one or the other of the crotch and the backer will be cross grain to the lamination).

There is a wealth of differing opinion on veneering bow fronts, without even bringing up whether to apply a veneer to the inside of the lamination. An article on veneering bow fronts in a recent issue of Fine Woodworking sparked a lively discussion or two on the FWW forum, which you might find interesting. Should be able to find the discussion(s) by searching on "veneer bow front" or something similar. Some swear by existing antiques, but it's always possible the few existing had unique wood, . . .


 
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Brad

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Joined: 2008-04-22

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Subject : RE: Backer veneer
Posted : 2008-09-25 1:53 AM
Post #34947 - In reply to #34945
My take is yes. Part of the problem is getting the stuff onto the substrate without cracking it (even after softening). The other thing is I bet you were planning on a length wise bow front veneer and your crotch will probably look best in the same direction. This would mean the grains are parallel and not cross banded. Craig and Don both recently have suggested the importance of that. Hopefully Craig will add his comments. If you are ever reading on the woodweb or do some searching here you will find he is a very experienced production guy.

Have you worked with a crotch veneer before? If not, if time permits and you have not ordered the stock I would suggest you mess around with a small quantity first. Its quite the nightmare to work with. Maybe now is not a good time for me to respond, having just spent about 1.5 hr taping a few damaged pieces of crotch. I am approaching finishing 100sq ft of a 240sq ft batch and boy it is trying my patience.

Another thing to think over if you have not already is the finish. That beautiful highly figure grain that we woodworker types love really makes life difficult if you book match any. The opposing grain pattern really does a trick with the light since the grain cuts are opposite after matching. I had one fellow suggest that my sequence matched veneers were not matched due to the apperance of my four way match.

Sorry if I touched on points you fully understand.

Brad


 
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MWJ

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Subject : RE: Backer veneer
Posted : 2008-09-25 10:35 AM
Post #34948 - In reply to #34947
Thanks for the info guys. To answer some questions I received my vacupres Tuesday, so this is my first veneering project. Forgive me if I am not clear on my questions because I am not very familiar with this despite books and web searches. I have seen the two ply discussions but since mine is not, could I laminate a second piece(counter veneer) on the face and back at 90 degrees to the face grains to acheive the same results? Can the counter and backer veneers be simple Mahagony and not crotch? Thanks again.


 
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craig tufankjian

Posts: 308

Joined: 2004-02-01
Location: syracuse ny 13208

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Subject : RE: Backer veneer
Posted : 2008-09-25 11:44 AM
Post #34949 - In reply to #34948
this is just a test before i reply. i want to see if i can add this file


 
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craig tufankjian

Posts: 308

Joined: 2004-02-01
Location: syracuse ny 13208

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Subject : RE: Backer veneer
Posted : 2008-09-25 12:27 PM
Post #34952 - In reply to #34948
OK... it wouldn't load. to answer your question , yes i would apply veneer to both sides of your drawer front. like Don said you should two ply the crotch as well. you might want to reduce the thickness of your laminations to 1/16 th. there will definetly be some spring back with 1/8 th. so ... whatever you do to the front you should do to the back.

i was trying to load a cad drawing along with an earlier post which was a crotch mahogany with holly inlay bowed front drawer front. if you have cad capabilities i can send it to you in an e-mail. for those who dont have cad capabilities you can go to ashlarvellum.com and download there free shareware software which allows the user to print view and share cad drawings in dxf dwg .


Craig


 
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Jeff Patrick


Joined: 2004-04-15
Location: Bainbridge Island, WA

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Subject : RE: Backer veneer
Posted : 2008-09-25 2:03 PM
Post #34953 - In reply to #34952
I'm looking for some clarity. I think you're recommending two things, with one dependent on the other..... First, you say to two-ply the crotch veneer and second, because the face will be two-ply then the rear of the panel must be veneered also with two-ply. Is this correct?

But... if he can successfully veneer the front with the crotch without having to two-ply it, then I would assume the layup can be done with the thin veneer only on the face. Correct?




 
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craig tufankjian

Posts: 308

Joined: 2004-02-01
Location: syracuse ny 13208

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Subject : RE: Backer veneer
Posted : 2008-09-25 2:35 PM
Post #34955 - In reply to #34953
no.... it would be over kill to two ply the back , but... you should balance the lay up by veneering the inside . crotch mahogany is generally sliced a wee bit thicker than say standard flat cut veneer.

if the veneer is thin all the more reason to two ply the crotch mahogany. taking into consideration that the substrate is solid wood as well.

if it were me i would glue the crotch mahogany to 1/16th african mahogany veneer , then veneer the inside of the drawer with just 1/16th african mahogany veneer. assuming that the crotch is african and not honduran.

any crotch mahogany that is not two plied regardless of what the substrate is will eventually start to show cracks in the feather portion of the crotch over time.

craig
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