Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-09-09 11:09 AM
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Paula

Posts: 37

Joined: 2004-05-22

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Subject : Substrate for kitchen cabinets
Posted : 2006-03-23 11:17 AM
Post #32917

I'm getting ready to make kitchen cabinets. The cabinets will be veneered (with fiddleback anigre). I want to make sure that they can stand up to the kind of conditions you get in a kitchen, and I've been thinking about using furniture-grade plywood as a substrate.

Does that make sense, or am I over-engineering? Would MDF work? If I use plywood, do I need to use two-ply veneer on each side, or is it enough to run the grain perpendicular to the face grain in the plywood?


 
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Larry Root

 
Subject : RE: Substrate for kitchen cabinets
Posted : 2006-03-24 6:54 AM
Post #32919 - In reply to #32917

Paula,

Other forums have had heated debates among professional cabinet makers as to the relative merit between particle-borad, MDF, and ply. Each has its (very real) advantages and each carries disadvantages.

To put it in perspective, the cabinets in my house are inexpensive (read cheaply made), contractor grade units that were installed before we bought. They've held up for more than 20 years but are begining to structurally fail: They're made from 1/2 inch particle board. The cabinets in my folks house were made in the late 50s with a ply very similar to what's sold today as Baltic birch plywood. Those cabinets are still solid. I would guess that a well built cabinet set made of 3/4 MDF would be somewhere between those two. Thus, the quesiton is how long you wish the cabinets to last. If MDF could give you 20 plus years, do you need more? What type of counter top are you going to use -- typical high-pressure-laminate countertops use a particle board core. Will you replace the cabinets when the counter fails?

If you are concerned about the wet environments, consider one of the water resistant MDFs for the sink and dishwasher cabinet sections.

The fact is, once properly installed, even shoddy construction (such as my cabinets) can be remarkably durable. Until they're installed, the edges of MDF and particle board can be damaged more easily than can plywood (don't drop your panel on its corner -- I've tried but cannot recommend that technique).

If you've never built case goods before, buy a sheet of each and build the same cabinet from each sheet. That will quickly tell you whether you have a strong preference for one over the other -- and it will give you really needed insight before you launch into a kitchen's worth of cases. If you do not have a way to control dust, you might decide that MDF is a bother: It generates lots of REALLY nasty, fine dust. But a shop vac connected to your router and circular saw can capture most of it.

Good luck,
Larry


 
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Russell

 
Subject : RE: Substrate for kitchen cabinets
Posted : 2006-03-24 7:35 AM
Post #32921 - In reply to #32917

I'm unclear about your question- I use 3/4 maple ply for the boxes- its easy to work, lightweight, rugged, and looks great finished.I wouldnt use plywood for doors- its unpredictable- I've only used mdf , banded with solid wood, for veneered surfaces,(doors) And had no major failures. as long as you veneer both sides of mdf ( or anything else) your panel should remain stable.
have fun
Russ


 
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Paula

Posts: 37

Joined: 2004-05-22

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Subject : RE: Substrate for kitchen cabinets
Posted : 2006-03-24 7:50 AM
Post #32922 - In reply to #32921

What about drawer fronts?

What do you mean when you say that plywood is unpredictable?

How about the performance of screws in MDF, like in the hinges and door handles, since they'll get a lot of use?


 
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Don Stephan

Posts: 825

Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: Substrate for kitchen cabinets
Posted : 2006-03-25 7:45 PM
Post #32925 - In reply to #32917

Many people shy away from using plywood of any grade for veneer substrates because there can be voids in the interior plies. If using a vacuum press, the enormous clamping pressure can produce permanent hollows over the voids that can be noticeable.

How have you applied veneer in the past, and was it raw or paper backed? Are you making frame and panel or flat panel cabinet sides? Will the doors be frame and panel or flat panel? If there will be any flat panels, how are you going to treat the edges - same veneer as the sides, or solid wood edging?


 
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Paula

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Subject : RE: Substrate for kitchen cabinets
Posted : 2006-03-27 3:23 PM
Post #32926 - In reply to #32925

I have applied veneer (I have one of Vacupress' presses), but not on a project like this. I've done some table tops over MDF, and a couple of curved forms over bendable plywood, all of which have turned out well.

For the cabinets, I plan to use raw veneer. The cabinets will be frameless, with flat cabinets sides, drawers, and doors. I'm planning to put solid wood edges on everything before I add the veneer.

In addition to standard height base cabinets, I'm going to be building some wall cabinets that will be about 80" tall, so I can't use baltic birch for those, at least.

My two concerns are: 1) that the cabinets hold up given the fact that they will get wet, at least around the sink and dishwasher, and 2) how well the hinges, knobs, pulls, and drawer glides will hold up to regular use. I hadn't heard that I can get water-resistant MDF, and I'm going to look into this.


 
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Don Stephan

Posts: 825

Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: Substrate for kitchen cabinets
Posted : 2006-03-28 9:27 AM
Post #32932 - In reply to #32926

Applying the solid wood edging before veneering means that the edge of the veneer will be exposed to possible chipping. Having solid wood edging will allow you however to slightly round over the edges so there is not a sharp corner to catch and pull.

Water damage is always a potential problem. Probably the majority of manufactured sink and vanity cabinets have melamine coated particle board carcases. I'd expect a careful inspection would show at least a third have an area swollen by prior water exposure. Water doesn't penetrate melamine, so the damage occurs at joints and pipe openings. Can't advise if urea resin glue forms a water barrier under the veneer, but you will still have joints and openings. When I used to build sink bases, I always included a pull out tray. The primary purpose was to allow access to items stored in the sink base, but a secondary benefit was a "leak catcher". Leaks and spills are going to happen, occasionally with disastrous results.

Regarding you concern as to whether hardware will hold up to regular use, I 'm going to assume you are wondering if the screw fasteners will hold in an MDF core. Good hardware has a long track record of performing well. As to holding screws, MDF I would rate as good as particle board at holding screws, and again perhaps half the kitchen and bath cabinets in use have particle board cores. Don't blast screws home with high torque screwdrivers. Can't point you towards a source, but I once bought a box of 5/8" screws for mounting European hinges that had a slightly deeper thread than simple wood screws, and might have been a slightly better choice for MDF and particleboard.

If you have any concerns, build a test cabinet or two, ideally one base and one wall. Better to discover design issues and construction challenges there than in the midst of a full set of cabinets.

A suggestion would be to consider building a separate kick base rather than including in each cabinet. Avoids having to notch cabinet sides. Also, the separate base can be built to the length of a run of cabinets. Once installed, the separate cabinets can simply be set in place, much quicker than having to shim and level each and every base cabinet.

A second would be to consider wall cabinets 15" deep rather than the typical 12". The increased projection from the wall doesn't seem to be a problem when working on the counter, and the increased depth sometimes needed for very large serving dishes.


 
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Jeff Patrick


Joined: 2004-04-15
Location: Bainbridge Island, WA

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Subject : RE: Substrate for kitchen cabinets
Posted : 2006-03-28 2:46 PM
Post #32935 - In reply to #32917

Paula,For my own kitchen I used both maple and birch shop grade plywood as the substrate material. My veneer of choice was figured english sycamore. I used maple for the solid edging, applied before laying on the veneer. I have accepted the risk of a chipped edge for the advantage of satisfying the look that I want. Although this is a job for my wife and me, I also press these choices to my clients. I did not veneer both sides of cabinet sides that are constrained from movement. I have veneered both sides of doors and drawer fronts. I rejected the idea of mdf for anything and not because I don't think it is a good product. I simply didn't want it in my kitchen and I dislike working with it....... too heavy and dusty. Plywood is more costly, but not all that much considering the overall cost of the kitchen. I've never had structural issues with using ply as a substrate or simply as itself.Your finish choice will determine susceptibility to water damage more than anything else.Jeff


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