Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-09-09 11:09 AM
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Ron Grabler

Posts: 10

Joined: 2003-07-04
Location: Escondido, CA

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Subject : Veneering Thin Copper
Posted : 2008-04-22 9:01 PM
Post #34519

<P>I am planning to laminate .005 thickness copper sheets to 1/4 inch baltic birch substrate.  This will be a flat panel.</P><P>Query.  Will Unibond 800 bond the metal to the substrate adequately or should I use some other adhesive?  If so, what would you suggest?</P><P>Query.  With a metal face, should I use a backer veneer?</P>


 
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Darryl Keil

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Location: Maine

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Subject : RE: Veneering Thin Copper
Posted : 2008-04-23 11:50 AM
Post #34520 - In reply to #34519

Ron,

Unibond 800 need at least a little porosity to bond properly so its not the glue for copper. You will need to use either polyurethane glue or epoxy. Make sure you scuff up the copper.

No need for a backer in this case although I might seal the back side.

Sincerely
Darryl Keil


 
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Brian Gray

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Joined: 2004-01-21
Location: Sandusky, OH

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Subject : RE: Veneering Thin Copper
Posted : 2008-04-23 1:49 PM
Post #34521 - In reply to #34520

I'm 99% sure that Silas Kopf uses epoxy on his boulle work (brass).

I'll double check my notes when I get home today.

But I can definitely tell you that as Darryl said, Unibond is not the adhesive for this.


 
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Jeff Patrick


Joined: 2004-04-15
Location: Bainbridge Island, WA

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Subject : RE: Veneering Thin Copper
Posted : 2008-04-25 8:05 PM
Post #34522 - In reply to #34520

Not true regarding the backer here. I've personal experience veneering both copper and steel to 1/4" mdf and to ply. Without a matching metal backer you'll get warpage. It won't happen right away, but it will occur. Again, it's better to be safe than sorry.



 
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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Veneering Thin Copper
Posted : 2008-04-26 8:17 PM
Post #34523 - In reply to #34522

Jeff,

Your experience interests me on this one. Im surprised that it warped as this material has almost no expansion/contraction and epoxy or polyurethane has no shrinkage.

I'd be interested to hear more. How big was the panel, did you seal the back, etc?

Darryl


 
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Jeff Patrick


Joined: 2004-04-15
Location: Bainbridge Island, WA

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Subject : RE: Veneering Thin Copper
Posted : 2008-04-28 2:57 PM
Post #34525 - In reply to #34523

The panel that most comes to mind was one of mdf and mild (not stainless) steel, 22 ga.(?). I sealed the back with sprayed lacquer, several coats. I used polyurethane glue because it sticks well to both metal and wood products. The panel was 20"x40" or so. It was a counterweighted vertical sliding door for a fancy desk/storage/shelving thing for an office. I remember it because it was such a nasty bear to remove and replace. The warpage occurred within two weeks of installation and whether this was due to heat, moisture, bad vibes or a combination I don't really know. I made a new one with steel on both sides and it has stayed stable for four years. As you often say, Darryl, its better to play it safe.

After experiencing that I've always veneered both sides so I really never repeated the experiment. Except for a recent project where I only covered one side with some stainless. However in this case the panel was a full one inch thick with maple veneer on the opposite side. And the attachment of this particular composite would preclude it from ever warping (bolted in six places).

Obviously warpage of a metal covered panel isn't due to moisture affecting the outer skin. Temperature and actual glue layer shrinkage must play important roles. Now that I think about it, the nasty panel I had was warped with the metal on the concave side which indicates moisture getting to the sealed but uncovered mdf. It really doesn't take much to warp these thin panels... all life is a balance I guess.


 
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Ron Grabler

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Joined: 2003-07-04
Location: Escondido, CA

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Subject : RE: Veneering Thin Copper
Posted : 2008-04-28 3:50 PM
Post #34526 - In reply to #34520

Thank you Daryl, Brian and Jeff for your comments. I think I'll use a slow set epoxy for no shrinkage, although I've worked with Gorilla glue quit a bit in bent lamination work and found it is extremely stable as well. I'm designing frame and panel doors, so the frame will help stabalize the panel. The door panel is 24 x 16 inches. I'll put a backer on it as I do in all my veneering work. Since the copper thickness is only .005 inches and can be cut with scissors, (about the thickness of aluminum foil folded five times, I don't see too much chance for movement. I think the most important thing will be to apply a very smooth coating of the adhesive so that no little ridges or bumps will show through. Of course I'll vacumn bag it.

Thanks for you input.

Ron Grabler


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