Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-09-09 11:09 AM
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Mike Noble

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Joined: 2007-02-26

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Subject : Kitchen island bartop
Posted : 2007-02-26 3:32 PM
Post #33662

Hello

I am building a veneered curved island top that will be "float" on top of a concrete countertop. The curved island top should be a thin as possible. It will be approx 100" in length and supported each 16". I am thinking of using the honeycomb product.

I have a couple questions.

Will the veneered top be stiff enough if I use 1/2" honey comb?

What is the best material for the outer laminates?

What is the best way to attach a curved edge banding that has a profile?

Thanks in advance!


 
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Don Stephan

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Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: Kitchen island bartop
Posted : 2007-02-27 7:59 PM
Post #33663 - In reply to #33662

The thicker the honeycomb, the stronger the resulting torsion box. Also, the thicker the outer (plywood? MDF?) skins the stronger the resulting torsion box. You might have to experiment some here. Also, you mention the top will be supported on 16" centers ... how strong will those supports be? I.e. will they have any flex or give to them, and how wide will they be? Finally, will the ends of the top be cantilevered, and if so how much?

Regarding the profiled curved edge banding ... not sure if you are asking how to fabricate a curved edging to match the top, that is then profiled, or simply how to adhere a shaped and profiled edging to the torsion box.

Sounds like an interesting project.


 
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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Kitchen island bartop
Posted : 2007-02-27 8:25 PM
Post #33664 - In reply to #33662

Mike,

I'm not sure why you want to use honeycomb on this project. If I understand this right you have a full concrete counter top underneath so there is plenty of support already. I don't understand about the 16" supports. If you're give a little space between the top and the concrete couldn't you put the supports much closer together?

Please explain a little further. I don't mean to discourage you from using honeycomb but its a fair amount of work to make a skinned panel of honeycomb and if you don't need to I would forgo using it.

Sincerely
Darryl Keil


 
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Mike Noble

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Subject : RE: Kitchen island bartop
Posted : 2007-02-27 9:40 PM
Post #33665 - In reply to #33664

Darryl, Don

I will post a couple pics that should help. The floating veneered counter will sit above the concrete counter. I have inserted small bolts with red flagging tape so you can see how it is designed. In the final installation, the bolts will be secured from under the concrete counter to small posts, these posts will be fastened to the underside of the floating veneered countertop. I have some freedom to play with the supporting structure under the floating counter. By the way, the island itself was made with a some very substantial forms, and veneered with the Vacupress system - that was a fun project!
Attached file : DSC_0464.jpg (38KB - 361 downloads)
Attached file : DSC_0465.jpg (37KB - 328 downloads)



 
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Don Stephan

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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: Kitchen island bartop
Posted : 2007-02-28 8:01 PM
Post #33666 - In reply to #33665

Now that I have a better picture I agree with Darryl about a solid substrate. You're not supporting the top with solid supports but instead discrete points. MDF flatter, but if you need to insert or fasten posts plywood holds screws much better.

There's going to be tremendous torque on the top, with discrete post supports, when someone leans on an edge. I'm not sure how well it's going to work. Pairs of posts, at inside and outside edges, every 16" would work MUCH better I suspect, and ideally three support pins every 16", one near each outside edge and one in the middle. Better still would be a full width support such as a 1"x1", angle iron, or something similar. Best would be a solid layer between the top and the concrete base; this could be a couple inches narrower so the top would still have a floating appearance, but spills on the concrete would quickly wick into the support base.

The concept is striking, but I think a long-lasting implementation will be quite a challenge. All in all, a solid top in an appropriate choice of wood for a kitchen counter looks better and better if you want to keep the support post concept.

Just my 2 cents.


 
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Mike Noble

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Subject : RE: Kitchen island bartop
Posted : 2007-02-28 9:57 PM
Post #33667 - In reply to #33666

Don

Thankyou for your reply. I am so appreciative of the generous assistance the that woodworker offer!

In the last paragrpah, are you suggesting a solid wood glue-up as opposed to veneer, or are you suggesting mdf core veneer as opposed to honeycomb? The main reason I was thinking of honeycomb is the potential for a thinner laminate. I do understand that I need to plan for some good structural support for the cantivers.

Cheers

Mike




 
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Don Stephan

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Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: Kitchen island bartop
Posted : 2007-03-03 7:13 PM
Post #33672 - In reply to #33667

Honeycomb and other types of torsion boxes require special interior reinforcement (i.e. solid blocking) to hold screws and fasteners, and in this case isolated supports. It's not possible to add additional point supports at a later time if proven necessary, because the solid blocking won't be present. With the desired design, a torsion box will be very challenging.

MDF is very flat, but does't hold screws and other types of fastener very well. Plywood can have interior voids; if these show up under the pressure of a vacuum press and the veneer power sanded it's possible to sand through the veneer. Neither choice of solid substrate is risk-free.

If you prefer a top only 3/4" thick, I'd probably stay with solid hardwood for overall strength and ability to hold fasteners. But I'd want the three rows of posts (left side, middle, and right) with each row staggered so the board is less likely to split on a row of posts.

If a thicker top is acceptable and there's a strong reason to prefer veneer over solid wood, I'd consider two layers of MDF laminated together if the overall thickness was sufficient for the depth of fastener at the top of the posts, with three rows of support posts. With MDF however (and plywood to a lesser degree), the edges of the veneered top will be likely to be dented with the occasional bump and knock, so I'd probably want to include an edge of oak or maple behind the veneer. But as the top gets thicker, veneer on the (hardwood) edges is more likely to suffer from expansion and contraction of the underlying solid wood.

If the top is for your own personal use, it's easier to try risker designs as long as you're willing to accept the possibility of having to remake the top if it doesn't work. If for someone else I'd be much less likely to take a flyer on a problematic design. Unfortunately, ideal testing would require 6-12 months of actual use.


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