Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-09-09 11:09 AM
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ckurak

Posts: 107

Joined: 2006-10-28
Location: Florida

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Subject : Veneering a 1.5" counter top
Posted : 2006-11-02 7:16 PM
Post #33437
I am adding veneering to my shop capabilities, and am relatively new to this craft. So, I want to run this idea past more experienced users. Thanks for taking a moment to read this.

I am constructing a 2'x8' countertop for a dry bar. The finished thickness needs to be about 1 1/2". It will have a hard maple front nosing 2" wide by the same 1.5" thick. the other three sides will butt up against other surfaces and not be exposed. Six feet of the counter will be supported by base cabinets with solid tops. The last two feet span over a wine cooler with support at the very end.

The veneer top will be 2-ply Wood-on-Wood quarter-sliced white maple. I have a backer veneer that is of 2-ply WoW plain-sliced maple. I would like to use 3/4" lightweight MDF for the substrate. The lightweight MDF is preferred to avoid the weight of regular MDF. (I work alone.)

My thought is to use, in order from the bottom, 1) backer veneer, 2) 2 sheets of 3/4" MDF, 3) good veneer. The adhesive will be Unibond 800. I know that a balanced panel should always be an odd number of plies. And, 6 is NOT an odd number!

After vacuum veneering, the edges would be trimmed, the solid maple glued on, and a profile routed on the solid edge.

Does anyone have any comments on this, either pro or con? Or, otherwise?

Thanks in advance,

Charles


 
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Brian Gray

Posts: 339

Joined: 2004-01-21
Location: Sandusky, OH

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Subject : RE: Veneering a 1.5" counter top
Posted : 2006-11-02 10:40 PM
Post #33438 - In reply to #33437
The first comment that I have is on your hardwood edging plan.

You say that the hardwood edging will be 2" wide.

Is this really necessary?

Typically, when doing edging like this, you glue up the edging proud of the veneer surface, and then trim with hand planes, router jig, edge lipping planer, whatever....

It won't be easy to get a 2" thick edge to mate perfectly with your veneer, no matter what method you use.

Of course...it can be done, but I'm trying to save you headaches...is 1" feasible? Maybe 3/4"?

That being said, I completely take back the comment if the edge treatment that you will execute will bring the flush surface back to 1" or 3/4". In other words, if you are going to do a real big roundover, and bring the width of the edge to be flushed significantly closer to the veneer edge, then nevermind.

Is this clear? Bottom line is that a large edge treatment will mean you will only have to flush a small portion, instead of an entire 2", which would be tough to flush cleanly.

In regards to your balancing plan. It sounds right to me. Your backer is 2-ply, your center is 2 sheets of MDF, and your show face is 2 ply.

Unless I'm wrong (and I could be), it's not necessary to glue up an odd number of plys...even numbers of plys work fine. The plywood companies usually use odd numbers, but I don't think that there's any real reason for this that effects the function. I've glued up plenty of projects with even numbers of plys, and never had a problem.

In regards to your light-weight MDF...just personal preference, but I don't think that there's enough weight difference for me to pay extra to get it in my area. Just my 2 cents. If you can get it for the same price of standard MDF, nevermind.


 
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ckurak

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Location: Florida

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Subject : RE: Veneering a 1.5" counter top
Posted : 2006-11-03 8:28 AM
Post #33439 - In reply to #33438
Brian,

The width of the edgebanding does allow for a large profile on the top. I've done this before using two 2'x8' sheets of veneer plywood for the counter. (But, this limits the selection of veneers, of course.) I do have a lipping planer, so the extra width of the nosing is not an big issue. It only takes a few careful minutes to level the nosing with the planer. A quick pass with a R/O sander completes the levelling. Finally, the edge profile is added.

However, I will remeasure everything after trimming the laminated assembly, and before adding the nosing. The finished counter width must be exactly 24.75" for this particular application, so I may not need a full 2". A lot will depend on how accurately I can align the sheets in my press. The edge profile does NOT take up the full 2"!

Your comments are very helpful. Thank you!

Charles


 
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Brian Gray

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Joined: 2004-01-21
Location: Sandusky, OH

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Subject : RE: Veneering a 1.5" counter top
Posted : 2006-11-04 10:48 AM
Post #33440 - In reply to #33439
Hey Charles,

Sounds like you are ahead of the game here.

Curious...is your edge lipping planer the Virutex?

http://www.virutex.com/catalog/i15.html

This looks like a wonderful tool, but I could never justify the expense, so I have always done my edge lipping with hand-tools.

Just curious if this is your tool, and if so, maybe you could comment on it. Worth the expense? If this isn't your tool, I'm still curious what you use.

Thanks,

bg


 
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ckurak

Posts: 107

Joined: 2006-10-28
Location: Florida

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Subject : RE: Veneering a 1.5" counter top
Posted : 2006-11-04 3:10 PM
Post #33441 - In reply to #33440
Brian,

I have the Hoffman lipping planer.

http://www.hoffmann-usa.com/htm/lipping_planer/bh-556.htm

It is about double the cost of the Virutex. However, I talked to a number of cabinet shop owners before I bought it. Many praised the tool. One of them returned the Virutex to buy the Hoffman. His guys would reach for the Hoffman and not use the other.

I've only had mine for a few months, and have only used it occasionally. But the time saved is tremendous. If I take my time and work at 1" per second, an 8' counter edge will take about 1.5 minutes. The only thing left to do is run a random orbital sander across the edge to take off the last couple of thousandths. I'm sure as I get more comfortable with the tool, my speed will increase. Oh, that timing was based on a 2" wide solid hard maple edge.

If you get to any of the industrial woodworking trade shows, stop by the Hoffman booth and ask to try it out. They had a sample board that I ran the machine on myself. That convinced me of the need for the tool. The feedback from other owners convinced me of the brand. That is not to say that the Virutex is not a good machine. I have NO experience with it. I just trusted my fellow cabinetmakers.

Back to the counter top, I glued it up last night about 6:30. I took me about 25 minutes to spread the glue and assemble the 4 pieces. the shop temperature was about 71F, so this was just inside the time window suggested in the instructions. Since this is my first experience with U800 I was being extra careful. And, the 2'x8' MDF pieces soaked in the glue quite readily. I had to recoat to get the glue thick enough. The three layers of glue between the four pieces used most of the quart that I mixed. I left it in the press overnight. I also poured some glue in a baggie like Darryl suggested in his video. After 16 hours, the glue in the baggie was dry but flexible. So, I shut off the vacuum and looked at the results. Quite impressive. Currently I have the assembly still on my vacuum table with the top closed, but no pressure. I want to keep it flat until the glue in the baggie is hard. This will also keep the dust off it from other ongoing projects in the shop. Maybe Monday (2 extra days of drying) I can trim and add the solid nosing. Comments on the drying time?

Thanks again for you help!

Charles


 
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Brian Gray

Posts: 339

Joined: 2004-01-21
Location: Sandusky, OH

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Subject : RE: Veneering a 1.5" counter top
Posted : 2006-11-04 4:10 PM
Post #33442 - In reply to #33441
And here I am, telling you that edge-lipping 2" is tough!

Not with that tool!

I was only aware of the Virutex edge lipping planer. Looks like the Hoffman is the Cadillac. Someday...someday...

In regards to drying time...if the panel has been curing 16 hours, you're fine to get working on it. The Unibond in your baggie might be a little rubbery, but you're still fine to get to work. You don't have to wait until it's rock hard and bone dry...at this point, your panel will not budge from where it is.

Thanks for the heads up on the planer. Let us know how it turns out, and please post pics.

bg


 
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Enrico Konig

Posts: 74

Joined: 2006-01-06
Location: Vancouver, BC

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Subject : RE: Veneering a 1.5" counter top
Posted : 2006-11-05 11:05 AM
Post #33443 - In reply to #33441
I've always followed Darryl's advice: remove the panel from the bag & let it stand on edge in such a way that air can circulate round it. No working the panel for 12 hours or so, let the moisture that is still in the panel out. Do not leave the panel in the bag.
I use electric blankets over the vacuum bag to greatly speed up the glue cure. Even in the winter here, the glue will be fully rigid in six hours. Still, as a precautionary measure, I leave the panel aside til the next day before I start doing anything to it.

If I were you, I would be using honeycomb with 1/4" skins to do a 1 1/2" thick panel. 1 1/2" of solid mdf is just way too heavy. I've been having great results with the honeycomb: very light (relatively) & extremely stable. And I simply do not trust mdf to stay flat if it is not fully supported. The beauty of these honeycomb panels (as with any torsion-box construction) is that they are rigid and they stay flat, even in unsupported applications. Great for cantilevers.

enrico
vancouver, bc
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