Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-09-09 11:09 AM
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Jim Ritch

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Joined: 2010-06-25
Location: Dahlonega, GA

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Subject : Burl Problems
Posted : 2010-10-09 7:56 AM
Post #36179

Although I am an old woodworker, I am new to veneering and probably started with a project that is a bit ambitious. The project is a small William & Mary chest with walnut veneered sides, book matched walnut burl on the top, burl on the drawer fronts, and beading around the drawer fronts (photo attached). My apologies for such a long post but I encountered several problems with this project that I am quite sure the folks on this forum can lead me to correct in the future.

My first difficulty was in cutting two pieces of burl to produce a smooth straight seam for the top of the chest. I bought a Two Cherries saw and had it sharpened. Cutting the regular walnut veneer for the case sides was a piece of cake. No such luck with the burl. Because the burl was somewhat wavy, I applied a softener which helped. I then built a trimming jig for my router, as described in Jonathan Benson's book. Using the jig with a spiral trim bit, I used a climb cut to trim off about 1/16" but could never get an edge without fraying or splintering somewhere along the cut. Had the most success by overlapping and taping the edges to be cut, much like cutting wallpaper, and cutting through both pieces with the veneer saw. My difficulty cutting the burl even caused me to alter my design. I had intended to put a contrasting veneer about 3/4" wide around the burl but abandoned that with my cutting difficulties.

My second difficulty involved the gluing of the burl on the poplar substrate of the drawer fronts (used Baltic birch plywood for chest top and sides). I decided to use Titebond's Cold Press glue because I did not want to deal with mixing and the noxious fumes. It was not clear to me how much glue to apply. I applied it with a foam roller and rolled it on so that the substrate surface was uniformly wet. Then placed the pieces in the vacuum press using the cauls as described in the Vacu-Press video. My results were mixed, in that, a couple of the drawer fronts had a few bubbles, mostly at the edges. I don't know if the bubbles developed immediately because I only noticed them when I began sanding. The only thing I can surmise is that I must not have used enough glue or I waited too long before pressing.

The third difficulty arose when routing the rabbets in the drawer front edges for the 1/8" thick beading. The rabbets for the beading are cut after the drawers are dovetailed and assembled. I was using a 5/16 spiral straight bit. It seemed as if the burl on the face of the drawers was not tightly glued at the edges. The first pass (about 1/16" on the router table resulted in the burl splintering as much as 1/2 inch. On subsequent drawers I made a scoring cut through the veneer with the veneer saw before routing which seemed to work. Again, I suspect my gluing technique because I made a spare drawer to test my cuts first and for some reason it did not splinter at all.

My final difficulty was the appearance of a few more bubbles during the finishing process (only on the drawer fronts). Unfortunately, I don't remember at which stage the bubbles appeared, although it did appear before my lacquer topcoats. The very first coat applied was an alcohol based dye, that was followed by a shellac wash coat. A water borne glaze was then applied followed by another wash coat, then an oil based glaze, another wash coat and finally my topcoats. I assumed that the shellac wash coat would seal the burl.

There were other problems encountered, such as my feeble attempts to repair the bubbles in the multi-directional grain of the burl, but I will save those for another post.

Would very much appreciate any comments/suggestions etc. I definitely have a lot to learn.

Attached file : chest (Small).jpg (43KB - 112 downloads)



 
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Don Stephan

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Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: Burl Problems
Posted : 2010-10-09 6:07 PM
Post #36181 - In reply to #36179

Jim:
I've found walnut burl veneer to be one of the more difficult veneers to work with, so yes you've chosen an especially difficult first veneering project.
I don't like (really, hate) PVA glues for veneering. Despite all the publicity of "Katrina trailers" I don't think the amount of urea formaldehyde in veneer glue is significant, and I don't find it to have an objectionable odor. The moisture in PVA glues can cause veneer bubbling during glueup, can open taped seams, and never becomes rigid. I'd suggest you use uf glue, especially with a wavy burl.
Burl is especially difficult to trim. You can leave blue masking tape on the glue side and veneer tape on the show side, to reinforce the veneer, during trimming. You might find helpful the videos by Paul Schurch - they are excellent and don't overlap very much those by Darry Keil/Vacuum Veneering.
Apply the glue evenly with a foam roller so that when you drag your finger through the layer of glue a small ridge forms on each side of your finger. You may be reduce the router chipping by leaving a band of veneer tape (on the show side) over the area to be routed, removing it after routing. You don't mention the direction of the spiral - I'd use a down spiral to minimize chipping.
And if you're willing to veneer plywood for the carcass, I'd use MDF or BB for the drawer fronts also, to avoid seasonal expansion and contraction under the veneer. True, qs poplar is pretty stable, but sheet good even more so.
Don


 
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Jim Ritch

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Joined: 2010-06-25
Location: Dahlonega, GA

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Subject : RE: Burl Problems
Posted : 2010-10-11 5:58 AM
Post #36184 - In reply to #36181

Don and Charles

Thank you for such thorough informative responses. Based on your comments, I think my application of the glue and lack of timely pressing were the culprits with my adhesion problems. Looking back on the process, I was quite unsure about how much glue to use and I was trying to veneer front and back of the drawer fronts at the same time. I probably let too much time elapse before pressing. Darryl makes it all look so easy in his video; I think I should have started by just doing one side at a time. Making that "sandwich" and trying to ensure everything was aligned probably took more time than I thought (did all five drawers in two pressings). OK, no more PVA glue... it was just that it is no muss, no fuss...just squeeze it out of the bottle.

Regarding the use of MDF and BB, my concerns were twofold. One was simply a matter of weight. That is one heavy little chest. Secondly, the drawers were dovetailed and then I applied the beading. I have never liked the results when dovetailing plywood and can't imagine dovetailing MDF.

Will look for the Paul Schurch videos because I certainly need the help cutting burl. No, I do not intend to stop veneering. After all, I have too much invested in Darryl's press.



 
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ckurak

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Joined: 2006-10-28
Location: Florida

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Subject : RE: Burl Problems
Posted : 2010-10-11 7:59 AM
Post #36185 - In reply to #36184

Jim,

I would not suggest that you press one side, then the other. I always press both sides at the same time. I have seen opinions to the contrary. However, the risk of warping is just too high for me for doing one at a time.

The longer open time on urea glue should make pressing both sides at the same time fine. I believe the problem you had with PVA was that the glue was setting up before you had time to assemble and get the workpieces under pressure. This should not be a problem with urea glue. Yes, there still is an open time, but it is much longer than what you experienced.

Good luck,

Charles


 
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ckurak

Posts: 107

Joined: 2006-10-28
Location: Florida

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Subject : RE: Burl Problems
Posted : 2010-10-09 8:03 PM
Post #36183 - In reply to #36179

Jim,

I agree with Don on a number of points.

1) Forget about PVA for veneer. Amongst other things, the open time is not long enough for most of us. Chances are that the glue started to set up before you had the entire workpiece under good vacuum. The result was poor adhesion. I believe that led to the bubbles and some of the chip-out.

2) If you are serious about doing this, get the videos from Paul Schürch. As Don said, there is little overlap between Paul's and Darryl's videos. Both authors have tips and tricks that work well. Some practice and thought and you will be able to figure out when to use what technique (trick).

3) Yes, that was an ambitious first project. But, PLEASE, PLEASE, don't stop after this one. I am looking forward to seeing your future work. I just know it will look great.

4) Down-spiral will reduce/eliminate chip-out. Of course, you need very good glue adhesion first. But, a better glue will solve that issue. Just be sure it is mixed well and thick enough. Darryl's video shows what Don said about the ridges.

Good luck!

Charles


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