Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-02-12 2:48 PM
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Dwolf

Posts: 34

Joined: 2008-07-24

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Subject : another 2 ply veneer question
Posted : 2008-08-24 9:20 AM
Post #34868

I have some chestnut burl which will be glued down to curved doors and thought about doing the two ply approach.
The chestnut has a bunch of tiny pinholes which I assumed when gluing normally I wood use the unibond so that the holes will be filled with the brown colored glue. When doing the two ply approach that was best done with yellow to keep it flexible.. correct ?
So what's the best approach for this..

Joel


 
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Don Stephan

Posts: 825

Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: another 2 ply veneer question
Posted : 2008-08-24 12:05 PM
Post #34870 - In reply to #34868

Having had a bad experience with yellow glue and olive ash burl, I wouldn't want to mix burl and PVA. Water in the PVA likes to make the veneer swell and buckle.

I have seen previously a suggestion that urea formaldehyde (UF) could be used to press first just the two ply, if the two ply were immediately then pressed to a curved shape, rather than letting the two ply cure overnight (and the glue achieve final brittleness). But that then begs the question, could you simply glue everything together in one pressing - the substrate, intermediate, and face veneer - rather than the two ply in one pressing and then the substrate and two-ply in a second.

Darryl will likely get quite a chuckle from my non-technical description, but my experience is that as UF cures it first gets more viscous liquid and then becomes a flexible or rubbery mass. But it's probably a change in chemical state, gradually moving from a liquid to a solid as chemical bonds form. I'd guess that the chemical bonding process is not completed until the UF becomes rigid or brittle, but I haven't generally seen recommendations to keep simple veneer pressings "clamped" until full rigid cure is achieved (only pressings of curved laminations such as curved stair stringers).

Don't know at what initial point in the transition the two ply could safely be removed from the vacuum press, or how to identify that point. Typically, one pours some excess glue in a sealed sandwich bag and lays on top of the vacuum bag (and under a heating blanket if used). Therefore can't stir to check the thickness or state of the glue. Maybe when the glue doesn't flow when the bag of excess glue is squeezed between thumb and finger?

Be sure to make a test panel and take it through complete finishing before veneering the door panels. Several years ago I pressed an art stand of wenge (requested by the customer) and the test looked great until I sanded. UF that had bled through the open grain of the wenge became MUCH lighter after sanding. During mixing I had to make the UF almost black with dyes to eliminate the tiny white spots of sanded UF in the finished piece.


 
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Enrico Konig

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Joined: 2006-01-06
Location: Vancouver, BC

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Subject : RE: another 2 ply veneer question
Posted : 2008-08-24 1:37 PM
Post #34871 - In reply to #34868

Normally your 2 ply is done first. An urea formaldehyde glue (such as Unibond) would be definitely recommended, especially considering the bleed through you're going to get because of the pinholes. (I've never used pva for a 2 ply, and I definitely wouldn't use it if you had any seams because of the cold creep potential. And I don't use it on curved pieces such as what you're doing because of the greater springback than with urea.) Once your 2 ply comes out of the press, glue it up with the rest of your layers, again with urea formaldehyde. I have done this quite a lot as just one pressing, however, 2 ply & the rest, because it means one less pressing, less wasted glue, etc. But normally it is done separately. When the 2 ply comes out of the press, ideally it is pressed immediately with your other layers, as it will have a tendency to curl and will become brittle as the urea resin fully cures. But I have left 2 plies for several days, even longer sometimes, but had it under weight so that it didn't curl up. Just be aware that it will be a bit brittle when handling it. In some cases, as timing necessitates, I make the 2 ply before heading home for the evening, and then it will be fully cured and brittle by the morning, but will still easily bend to a much greater radius than your doors are likely to be. Shops with good quality sanding machines will sand the 2 ply before gluing it up with the substrate material(s), especially when it's going to be a curved piece, and this is one of the advantages of 2 ply. And I doubt if they're putting a 2 ply through the sander that isn't fully cured.


 
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Darryl Keil

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Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

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Subject : RE: another 2 ply veneer question
Posted : 2008-08-24 6:55 PM
Post #34872 - In reply to #34868

Joel,

I'll chime in and say, its not like a urea resin glue makes a two ply into some rigid non-flexing thing. There is still a certain amount of flexibility and I have done many two ply layups onto a core the next day. Thats not to say you could do it around a 6" radius the day after but even a 12" radius would be fine from my experience.

You never said what your radius is for this project.

Lets just say it a fairly tight radius and you do want to make the two ply and lay it up on the core in the same day. You really have most of the day to let the two ply press up before you go back in onto the core. Room temperature makes a big difference as to how long you leave the two ply in the press. At 70 degrees I would leave it in a good 7 hrs if your using Unibond 800. If its 90 degrees in your shop then 4 hrs would be fine. Better a little longer than shorter. That brittle hard cure is not achieved until the next day.

I also agree that yellow glue would not be a wise choice with this particular veneer.

Darryl


 
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texasthunderwoodwork

Posts: 25

Joined: 2007-10-31
Location: Central Texas

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Subject : RE: another 2 ply veneer question
Posted : 2008-08-26 2:24 PM
Post #34877 - In reply to #34868

A question for the OP=
Is there a specific reason for doing the two ply?
What adavntages are to be gained?

I am asking because I have never done two ply's and was just wondering why the extra work.

Thanks
Dave



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