Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-09-09 11:09 AM
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Brad

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Subject : Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-08-26 4:40 PM
Post #34878
I finally got back to my passage door veneer project. I have not worked with a difficult veneer such as this before, but I did watch Darryls DVDs before attempting. All in all it turned out not too bad, except for some of the joints are not perfect. I am looking for some tips to improve and see if I missed anything.

I started by flattening the pieces as Darryl described, but I still ended up with wavy edges and have ordered a Veneer softener for the next door panels. The pieces would not flatten perfectly as my previous projects when in the router jig and I know that this may have been part of the problem. After getting them all cut and test fitting I was pretty pleased with the joints, but as I taped them together with two hole tape and cross tape pieces I noticed the tape was not holding perfectly. I suspected that I might have some joint problems when I pressed it together, and sure enough I have some little spots where adjacent pieces overlap. I figure I can carefully repair the pieces, but am also thinking of a different door design.

Tips??

Thanks to all.

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/Passage%20Doors/DSC01655.jpg


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-08-26 7:23 PM
Post #34880 - In reply to #34878
hi tim,

i suck at typing so bear with me.

step one:
softener. gf20 i assume? what ever softener your using put it in a spray gun and apply it that way. saturate both sides. the directions say to dilute but i use it full strength. next separate each piece with paper making sure to alternate the leaves with the high low valleys opposing each other.

put the sandwich in the press and pull a half vacuum for about a half hour, after the half hour pull a full vacuum.

while your waiting for the "magic" to happen, start laying up for a two ply.any crotch species should always be two plied. if you don't you'll wish you did.

after about 8 hours pull the sandwich out and remove the paper and replace with new paper, your veneer should be dead flat but still a little moist so you still need to extract some moisture.

after about two more hours you can take the sandwich out and discard the paper. at this point you have about a 12 to 24 hours window before the veneer starts to loose its "magic" and goes back to it original shape.

because the wood fibers have been plasticized trimming is rather easy so i would trim the joints and get the face veneer ready for lay up on the secondary veneer. instead of two hole white tape i'd use no hole brown tape

once your face veneer is ready spread glue on the secondary veneer, apply the face veneer and back in the bag she goes.

plain sliced mahogany or poplar work well as a secondary veneer, the less grain the better.

what probably happened with you last project was that the veneer was a little wavy when you laid it up, once the vacuum started to pull down it flattened out some bumps and over lapped the joint.

if there are any splits in the feather portion of your veneer after you soften it you will want to tape those closed as well before two plying.




 
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Brad

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-08-26 8:27 PM
Post #34881 - In reply to #34880
I had ordered SuperSoft 2. Now that you mention the GF20, I do recall seeing before. Do you prefer this? I have about six or so doors to build so I dont care if I have to order some other.

Why two ply? I assume the first ply is parallel to the face ply. Do you stagger the joints to some degree or does that matter?

Just to make sure, the first ply is pressed and cured before starting with the face ply.

The veneer looked exactly like you say. Wavy as ever. It was quite difficult to cut and took a great deal of patience to tape together. I wanted to try it out nonetheless since I had a backup plan for the door that allows me to work around the joints. I may try to fix the joints before cutting the panel up as it would be kind of a shame considering the flame of the sheets.

Huge thanks for the tips.

Brad aka Tim (ha!ha! just giving ya the gears)


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-08-26 9:07 PM
Post #34882 - In reply to #34881
hi brad,

not quite sure where the hell I got Tim from but tim sounded better.

gf20 is sold by veneersysyems.com. they tell me its just pure glycerine, what ever it is it works like charm.

if you intend to do the same book and butt pattern match then your two ply should go the short way. making sure you don't line up the center joint in your face veneer with any joint in your two ply lay up.

two ply serves two purposes. any movement in your substrate will not transfer to your face veneer. it will also lock all your joints together on your face veneer. you can also pre sand the lay up before the final gluing to your substrate. there is always a lot more stress in crotch species than say flat cut veneer so two plying is always required.

to sum up, soften first, then while your waiting assemble the secondary veneer, trim and tape up your face veneer and glue to the secondary veneer, then after that is done you can glue the whole two ply to your substrate


extra work----- yes
a litte bit more money----yes
agonizingly slow----yes

no open joints, no delamination----priceless


ok, i remember where the name Tim came from. i was reading a post just before your's and the guys name was Tim. so it stuck in my mind. what a relief, i thought i was losing my mind.


 
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Brad

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-08-26 9:28 PM
Post #34883 - In reply to #34882
One last question if you dont mind. Any reason I could not use a paper back veneer as the first ply? The local hardware store has several typical domestic species in paper back domestics, otherwise I order from Certainly wood (other side of the country for me). It is not a big deal if i have to wait since I will most likely complete the first door in this design to make darn sure I like it plus I should order the remainder of the Makore veneer stock I will need for the doors.

The effort is worth the look, but this is pushing it a bit. Not too bad so long as I keep a few projects on the go.

Maybe Darryl will chime in with what this type of softener is. If it is pure glycerine it seems I maybe able to find this somewhere closer. If the stuff is straight glycerine, it must come in different purities as that was part of the flattening solution Darryl recommended in his video and I used that in the mixture. Uggh, I should have paid closer attention in Chem class.

Brad


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-08-27 9:32 PM
Post #34884 - In reply to #34883
hi brad,

not sure about the paper back idea. sound a bit risky to me due to the thickness difference. most paper back veneer is 10mm thick as opposed to your veneer at 1/42nd. can say i ever tried it . not to steer you away from certianly wood but if all your looking for is backer veneer give ebay a try first. you may even find some cheap plain sliced makore for the first ply.


 
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Brad

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-08-27 11:16 PM
Post #34886 - In reply to #34884
Thanks for the help again. I did find some Makore veneer today and will probably order this.

Brad


 
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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-08-29 8:49 AM
Post #34889 - In reply to #34883
Brad,

GF20 is basically glycerin, some form of alcohol, and water, and most likely a few other ingredients in small amounts that I'm not privy to.

You'd get pretty close to it by mixing the main three ingredients yourself.

Darryl Keil


 
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BigRob777

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Subject : Glycerin
Posted : 2008-08-29 9:45 AM
Post #34891 - In reply to #34889
Where might one find glycerin? I've never seen it anywhere. Will denatured alcohol will work?
Thanks,
Rob


 
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Brad

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Subject : RE: Glycerin
Posted : 2008-08-29 11:52 AM
Post #34893 - In reply to #34891
Rob, I found Glycerin at a drugstore. They only stocked 100ml bottles, but they ordered me some 500ml ones. Lots of other options if you live in a big City. Darryl's DVD shows the Glycerin in a 4l bottle so I am guessing there might be some industrial uses for the stuff. His DVD also has the mixture and process for flattening. I cannot recommend his DVD enough before you attempt this. Crotch or Burls are fairly expensive and this could turn out to be an expensive learning experience. Before you buy any of these exotic pieces check to see if you can get pre-flattened and look very closely at the pictures of the pieces before you buy any. I totally understand Craigs recommendation to use multi-plies now that I have started the finish sanding of the piece. You will find areas where the grain is torn or for some other reason may be very difficult to work and you will be very skeptical to keep sanding.

Alcohol will not work for flattening. It evaporates far to fast.

Brad


 
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BigRob777

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Subject : RE: Glycerin
Posted : 2008-08-29 2:25 PM
Post #34895 - In reply to #34893
Brad,
I have both of Darryl's DVDs. Thanks for the info. I have bought some burls, but they're all very flat, though rather small (less than a square foot each.
I was just wondering, for future use. I'll try a web search.
Thanks,
Rob


 
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Brad

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-08-29 11:42 AM
Post #34892 - In reply to #34889
Darryl, if the main ingredient it Glycerin I am a bit confused why my flattening solution may not have worked. I made it like your DVD and flattened the pieces paying close attention to change the papers so they were dry. Now they were stacked under weights for a month or so, but with the glue in the mix I thought this was ok? After flattening the pieces were only slightly flatter, but quite a bit more pliable.

Thanks

Brad


 
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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-08-31 11:38 AM
Post #34898 - In reply to #34892
Brad,

I'm not quite sure why your veneer did not stay flat. I have sample of some really bad elm burl that I flattened years ago that I carry around with me to use when teaching and and it's still fine. If you want to send me a piece to examine I would be happy to look it over.

Darryl


 
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Brad

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-09-18 12:56 PM
Post #34924 - In reply to #34898
Darryl, I have to apologize for not seeing your offer to look over my veneer earlier. I may take you up on this, but I am not sure I have any spare sheets. I will try the flattening solution again as I think I may not have applied the solution liberally enough. The GF20 or super soft are both sprayed to saturate the veneer and I suppose that is what I should have done with the solution.

Thanks


 
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Brad

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-09-15 4:52 PM
Post #34915 - In reply to #34882
Craig:
Thanks to your help my second panel went much better. I cross banded with Makore veneer. I learned a few of the difficulties working with larger panels. The solid tape is great, but a bit more difficult to remove. The veneer softener worked great too.

I will fess up and admit to one of my problems with the last panel. I found I was not quite getting all the tape moistened consistently and I had some areas where it was not bonded properly. The ceramic roller is being replaced and I now check the joints closely.

Do you do much in the way to protect the panel edges while you are prepping for pressing? I dont know if it is because my space is not quite as tidy as it should be or I am not careful enough, but I find I do some damage to the pieces during prep.

Do you have a website? I was searching here for addresses, but didnt find too many. I found some examples of your work and all I can say is Wow.

Brad


 
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Don Stephan

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-09-17 7:23 PM
Post #34918 - In reply to #34915
Brad/Tim:
I use 3M packing tape to assemble the sandwich (back side veneer, substrate, front side veneer) and hold in place while inserting in the vacuum bag. A couple times I noticed the packing tape was lifting some of the veneer when I removed it, so now I apply 2" veneer tape to all four show face edges of veneer before applying the packing tape. If the veneer seems fragile, I might apply this edge veneer much earlier, even as early as after rough cutting the veneer, but I don't like to do that because it will cause some curling. Alternatively, I sometimes tape the four edges on the glue side with 3/4" or 1" blue masking tape on the glue side to protect the edges while working on the veneer.


 
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Brad

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-09-18 12:43 PM
Post #34922 - In reply to #34918
Thanks for the tips Don. I built a cabinet to get my veneer tools off the table so hopefully that will help eliminate some of the silly damage.

Brad/Tim/Roger/Lewis or whatever you wanna call me. Ha!hA!



 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-09-19 4:58 PM
Post #34927 - In reply to #34915
Brad,

when I press up panels I always over size things, both lay up and panel. this way if there is any damage it will either be sawed off or routed off.

sounds like your work area is like mine..... cluttered.

patience is the secret to removing no-hole tape. if you intend to use it all the time you might want to invest in a steamer. similar to a wall paper steamer but not, a little different. you will see them used at stores like the GAP, Banana republic ect... they use them to take out wrinkles in clothes .

I've used two tape dispensers , one is a cast iron unit with a brush applicator the other is a roller type. same one that Darryl sells. both work equally well.


 
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Brad

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-09-19 10:04 PM
Post #34930 - In reply to #34927
I just got my veneer dispenser today. John of Veneer systems sells one with a roller, moistener and tape all in one. Have you ever tried one of those? It moistens with a foamy, so I suppose one would have to pay attention. Sure looks like a good idea. My order mess up (narrow pieces) for the cross banding layer is trying my patience.

Finally found a good green tape dispenser from John too. I couldnt find one like another member here posted some time ago and I just dont have enough fingers to avoid putting the tape down endlessly.

What type of work does a veneer sticher work best for? Is it that much faster? $800 is not really that bad. I have shaper cutters that cost more.

Thanks for the steamer tip. I will look at one. There is a 100' of tape to remove from each panel for my cross banded layer.

Thanks


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-09-19 10:28 PM
Post #34931 - In reply to #34930
I don't own a little portable splicer but i have used them Kuper model. a real time saver but it still wont replace tape all together. the metal green tape dispenser is great for running across end grain , I forgot to mention that.
darryl sell's a splicer as well for a little less. sounds like you bought the Hade model tape dispenser. cant say i used that one let us know if it work's good.


 
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Brad

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-09-20 2:57 PM
Post #34932 - In reply to #34931
I tried out the dispenser and taper. Saved me a ton of time. That dispenser seems pretty much be mandatory. Perfect moistening. Usually by the end of taping the two panels my fingers would be covered in glues, but no more. I know you will know that, but it seems there a few lurkers. You should take a look at Veneer systems dispensers and let me know what you think about the tape applicator/moistener/roller and dispenser all in one. It allows one to roll out the tape and apply it directly to the veneer from the dispenser.

Is it appropriate to chat about Veneer systems products here? I dont quite feel right about it given this is a VacuPress site and I dont want to bother Darryl. For Canadians, Veneer Systems is great. They ship from a Ontario address for our orders. I received an order in Western Canada in about 4days. Incredible, and I bet if I wanted to put a rush on something that could be reduced to two days. No more calls from the border to discuss who is clearing the product and payment requests for duties or taxes. The border crossing is quite the nuisance.

Brad


 
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Paul Kierstead

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-09-21 4:16 PM
Post #34938 - In reply to #34932
Vacupress Sells a very similar (possibly identical) dispenser as well, if you look at accessories. It is, indeed, extremely handy and IMO makes life considerably more pleasant (and less error prone).


 
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Brad

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-09-21 9:59 PM
Post #34941 - In reply to #34938
I dont think Darryl sells this one. Pic attached. I almost ordered one, but hesitated. I do have one now like Darryl's. Great addition.

Brad
Attached file : FUA-1-full.jpg (38KB - 104 downloads)



 
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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-09-21 5:49 PM
Post #34939 - In reply to #34932
Brad,

Its fine to talk about Veneer Systems here. In fact the dispenser we sell comes from them. If you live in Canada it makes sense to get it through them. They sell our equipment as well.

Darryl Keil


 
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Brad

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-09-21 10:02 PM
Post #34942 - In reply to #34939
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I know John is a member here and he has helped me out on the Woodweb, but this is the first forum I have joined where it is managed by the business and I wasnt sure about the protocol.

Brad


 
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Don Stephan

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-09-23 7:54 PM
Post #34943 - In reply to #34942
For some strange reason, during work today I remembered you had commented about the difficulty of removing veneer tape. One trick I learned from Paul Schurch is, after the panel has cured overnight, start with coarse sanding. He uses a belt sander with I think 100 or 120 grit, and sands the entire panel until most of the veneer tape is removed. The thought probably is to level the panel with this first sanding, with the removal of the paper tape suggesting when to stop. I haven't been able to replicate this very well as the sanding belt always seems to clog with the veneer tape. What I have had success with is making three or four passes with a random orbit sander with 80 grit paper - enough so that the paper tape is abraded everywhere but not to the point where most of it is removed. This does seem to make the paper tape lift off MUCH more easily, perhaps the abrading is allowing the water to penetrate the tape and soften the adhesive more quickly. Anything that saves time at this step is great.

Shurch demonstrates the belt sanding approach on I think his first video www.schurchwoodwork.com


 
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Brad

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-09-23 9:27 PM
Post #34944 - In reply to #34943
Thanks for the tips. I have been using the scraper. It works pretty well, but its kind of messy. Works better if I am a bit more patient and time it right. I tried the random orbital, but it didnt seem much better. Maybe give it a whirl again. I think I will need a bit more veneer experience before I can stand beside a panel with a belt sander in hand. Yikes, I see things gettin thrown already. I am guessing Mr. Schurch is one of the most patient methodical people out there, I however have my moments where I am like a Bull in a China shop.

I have thought about getting Pauls DVD's, but I fear what ideas it might lead too and the time lapse for projects. I finally broke down and bought Certainly Woods display binders and now every time I order something I end up with some extra veneers to try. Today I ordered some Tamo and Pepperwood Burl, for what, dont have a clue yet, but I needed 16 more Makore pieces. Those boys are pretty darn great. Today when I was chatting with Dan he was concerned something was wrong with the Makore Veneer and that was why I kept ordering more. I fessed up and told him my estimating skills were crap.

Chatty Kathy over and out.
Brad


 
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Don Stephan

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-09-25 8:23 PM
Post #34956 - In reply to #34944
Brad/Tim/Kathy?:
Paul Schurch sells a very flexible putty knife for removing wet veneer tape. Don't know why it doesn't spot cherry and oak (iron) but it doesn't. Once the tape is soft simply push the blade forward under the tape. Once I tried it I never used a card scraper again for this.

Think we've set a record for the number of responses in one discussion . . .
Don


 
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Brad

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-09-25 10:04 PM
Post #34958 - In reply to #34956
Now thats one I will check out. thks. I love new gadgets. My office manager already thinks i am nuts for all the US Border clearing calls from UPS, I best not stop now.

Its nice to have others to chat with about this. The last cabinet maker I talked to in my area about veneering looked at me like I was nuts when I mentioned my projects. Why would you do that he asked? He also figured I should be using contact cement, so that pretty much ended the topic.

Brad


 
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Paul Kierstead

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Subject : RE: Makore Crotch Tips
Posted : 2008-09-26 11:32 AM
Post #34962 - In reply to #34943
I get tape off easily enough using the wet twice/pull off method, but have been having a devil of time getting the adhesive "stain" off on some quite white maple I have been using. Even on the slightly browner birds-eye it has been troublesome. Of course, this stuff is white enough that even the light coloured Unibond 800 bleed through has been troublesome.
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