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Darryl Keil

Last Activity 2025-02-12 2:48 PM
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Steven Kenzer

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Location: Putney, VT

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Subject : Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-17 7:51 AM
Post #34710

I'm getting ready to try Unibond 800 based on all it's praises received on the site. However, the truth is, I've used Titebond (yellow) for quite awhile, applied with a foam roller to the substrate, and have never had any issues. So, my question is, what, in the minds of this forum, is the problem with Titebond? Is it the fact that it's water based and has the potential to swell and shrink the veneer, especially at the joint line? For me, the downside to Unibond, is the mixing, the masking up (formaldehyde), etc.. It's awfully simple to grab a gallon jug of Titebond and lay it out. I'm curious what negative experience people have had with Titebond. Thanks in advance. Great forum.

SK

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Brian Gray

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-17 8:13 AM
Post #34711 - In reply to #34710

The main reason for me is the water.

I've had a few projects ruined because of PVA glue.

Take a look here...

http://www.briangray.net/projectdetail.cfm?ProjectID=26

These are some speakers that I did. I built the boxes first, and then pressed the skins on.

This led to a time complication...I had to press one side at a time in the bag. Because of this, I had to do 6 different pressings to complete the project.

Because of this, I decided to use a PVA. I could press it, let the glue bond after about an hour, and then take them out of the bag to cure and prep for the next pressing. Bottom line, it wouldn't take a week.

Well, you're not going to see it in the photos, but one of the panels wrinkled. Thankfully, it's a bottom panel, so the speaker sits on the flaw, but man was I angry.

This was a personal project. If it was a comimission, I'd be starting over and I'd be out a couple week's worth of effort.

Besides the lesson learned on PVA glues, I also learned a lesson in that I probably should have pressed the panels, and then assembled...all one pressing that way.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Unibond offers a stonger bond than PVA's.

My success rate with a PVA is about 80%, and with Unibond, it's about 97%.

Most of my work is marquetry where I'm putting weeks into putting together the skins. I won't trust a PVA anymore.

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Steven Kenzer

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-17 8:27 AM
Post #34712 - In reply to #34711

Hmmm, I do think you might have been better off 2 side veneering all components prior to assembly on that speaker project. Why do you think you had that buckling problem on the one face? I have to say, I think I've had about a 98% success rate with Titebond. Typically, nothing complex though.....flat panels, various sizes, in the press with 2 sides completed. I do think the foam rollers and knowing the proper amount to apply is critical with Titebond. Too much glue will definitely raise havoc.

Daryl.....what's your take on this question? I would be interested to hear your reasons for staying away from Titebond. I assume you reach for Unibond 99% of the time. Thanks.

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Brian Gray

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-17 11:02 AM
Post #34713 - In reply to #34712

//Why do you think you had that buckling problem on the one face?//

Water got into the veneer, and caused expansion. Why on one face and not the others? I have to assume that the glue bonded at the same time that the expansion occurred. So some spots bond, and some raise. Exactly why on one side and not others, I don't know.

Maybe the time involved between application of the glue and bonding.

And don't get me wrong...there's guys out there who use PVA's all the time. But for me, mixing two parts is not a hassle, and the glue is the best that I've used.

Also - there was an article in FWW a while back where they evaluated the bonding qualities and properties of all adhesives. PVA's, plastic resins, urea resins, epoxy, CA's, and some others.

I could be mistaken, but I seem to remember that the bonding strength of Unibond was greater than PVA's.

I'm on the road right now....when I get home, I'll see if I can find the article.

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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-17 2:38 PM
Post #34714 - In reply to #34710

Steven,

I would never tell anyone not to use Titebond or any brand of yellow glue, Ive used them plenty for veneering. The point is knowing when a PVA glue, white or yellow, is not enough. Because all PVA's bond and cure by the removal of moisture from the glue line they have a fairly high amount of shrinkage and a certain amount of creep after they have cured. With any paper backed veneer this is not an issue but can be on raw veneers, especially the more figured and delicate ones. Urea resin glues, which is what Unibond 800 is, are catalytic which makes them extremely hard with absolutely no creep.

PVA glues will hold veneer down just fine, what they usually cant do is prevent small movement across the face of the veneer. This can result in fizzuring and slight opening at the seams. Ureas with their very rigid glue line can in almost all cases eliminate this. They also give you long open time for larger pressings, something you don't get with PVA glues.

I completely understand the inconvenience of using urea glues as well as the health issues. What I say is that PVA glues are better for you and urea's are better for your veneer. You have to decide when that extra level of performance is worth it.

This is my check list for determining if I need to use a urea glue. If I say yes to any of these things then I use a urea glue.

1. Oily veneers

2. Figured veneers

3. Multiple veneers going in different grain directions. Like a 4 way match with a short grain border. This would include marquetry.

4. Horizontal surfaces

5. Large panels

Hope this helps

Darryl Keil

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Steven Kenzer

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-17 3:36 PM
Post #34715 - In reply to #34714

Darryl, thanks so much for that informative and very thorough answer. I really appreciate that. We're working on a bar area, doors and vertical fixed panels. The veneer is a Plum Pudding Mahogany. Although there are no very large panels (3'x4'max), the wood is somewhat figured and so therefore I'll give Unibond (with blocker added) a try. I'm sure it will be great and over time, in all likelihood, do a better job then Titebond. One more quick question though. In terms of protection and safety...do you keep your mask on while rolling it out or is that just during the mixing stage? Again, thank you for the advice.

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Jeff Patrick

Joined: 2004-04-15
Location: Bainbridge Island, WA

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-17 5:11 PM
Post #34717 - In reply to #34715

My experiences using the glues in question:

Titebond... Easy to apply, no nasty fumes, sets rapidly at room temperature less than 65º, I can keep the roller in a plastic bag and even use it the next day. However it has very short working time, can creep, and isn't as water resistant as Unibond. I've not had any real problems with bleed through with Titebond. I use Titebond II. I've tried Titebond Extend and had poor results. It allowed seam failure when cleaning veneer tape and when applying water soluble dye. The Extend also seems to have a very short shelf life. I'll not be using it again.

Unibond 800... I like it's results. I don't like the health issue and the fact that it needs 65º minimum heat and a few hours to set. I've had bleed through but have recently tried the blocker on European Chestnut and it works very well. It is also very costly for me since I am a long way from Maine. However, my work is rather high end/expensive and the glue is really peanuts compared to everything else.

I will probably continue to use both somewhat like Darryl outlined.

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Steven Kenzer

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-17 5:31 PM
Post #34718 - In reply to #34717

Jeff, I'm curious..have you ever seen "creeping", in regards to the joint areas opening slightly, when dealing with basic flat panel work and Titebond?

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Anton Gerner

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-17 6:22 PM
Post #34719 - In reply to #34718

I use a PVA glue for 100% of my veneering and I veneer a lot.
In my business we veneer everything ourselves with PVA and the only time we have problems is when either the board or veneer vary in thickness (bubbles in veneer). I have never had any problems with creep and have left panels in the sun to see what would happen - nothing other than bending. I say there is a lot of hype about Urea and in fact with a good quality crosslinking PVA you are much better off - easier to work, cheaper, less bleed through, less staining of timber.
Remember now days most commercial panel layers use PVA to press veneer onto their board.

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Steven Kenzer

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-17 9:39 PM
Post #34720 - In reply to #34719

Anton....you mentioned a "crosslinking" PVA glue. I don't associate that word with typical PVA glues, such as Titebond. Are you referring to a different category of PVA? What kind/brand name are you using? Thanks for the input.

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Steven Kenzer

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-18 9:02 AM
Post #34721 - In reply to #34720

To answer my own question, after a bit of web research, Titebond 2 is a "crosslinked" PVA adhesive. In regards to using PVA for veneer work, what exactly are the advantages to a "crosslinked" variety as opposed to non-crosslinked? I understand that Titebond 2 is water resistant so I suppose in horizontal applications, perhaps near water sources, this would be advantageous but, vertical flat panel work? Doors? Decorative paneling? Would there be working advantages to the "crosslinked" variety? Hope this isn't getting to long winded now. Thank you all for any input.

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BigRob777

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-18 10:11 AM
Post #34722 - In reply to #34721

Don't apologize. I can only speak for myself, but this thread has been and continues to be extremely educational. I'm going through decisions about glue type right now, so I'm hanging on every word written here. Thanks for all of you who are contributing to this thread, especially Darryl.

I would guess that something that was glued up with pva, when heated up by hot sunlight, would move, if say - someone sat on it, or something like that, or set something heavy on it. Just a thought. That doesn't address the vertical panels question though.

Please keep it coming.
Rob

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Scott

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-18 3:02 PM
Post #34727 - In reply to #34722

My personal experience is this. I use a lot of highly figured veneers. ( A lot of crotches) I have had great results with Unibond and bad results with PVA. Here are my experiences.

When I use pva, the veneer swells considerably as soon as the glue hits it. This causes buckles at my seams and sometimes in the middle of the sheets. It later (after cured) shrinks and causes joints to open.

If I am doing an inlayed section of veneer such as an elipse in a Federal piece of furniture the veneer swells so much with PVA the piece will no longer fit the recess!!!

Also I seem to get a lot of little cracks in the crotch veneers later. With unibond all of these problems go away.

I get a much higher rate of warpage with PVA. Not an issue with Unibond.

I lost many complicated set ups with PVA because the glue sets WAY too fast. Once again not an issue with Unibond.

To me water and veneer dont mix. Funny how 2 peoples experiences can be so different. I would recommend UNIBOND 800 as far superior to any PVA for veneering . Once again just my opinion and experience. I just want to save someone the time, money and frustration I have lost with PVA>

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Brian Gray

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-18 7:19 PM
Post #34729 - In reply to #34727

//Funny how 2 peoples experiences can be so different.//

I agree. Anton does some very amazing work with PVA's.

If you held me at gunpoint, I don't think that I could pull it off!!!

You'll have to give us a full tutorial, Anton!

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Anton Gerner

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-19 5:56 PM
Post #34734 - In reply to #34729

It is not that hard.
Just roll it on and put it in the press.
You have to make sure you get a good coverage of glue, without putting on too much.
The other thing is speed. Once you roll the glue on you need to put your veneer on and get it into the press in under 1 minute. I press one side at a time, so this helps.
The glue I use I assume is only available here in Australia: AVXL Plus.
I am tempted to try the Titebond glues though.
Press time depends on the temperature, but average would be 1 hour per side. I have 2 presses running at once, so we can get through it quite quickly. I normally let the panels sit a few days before putting them through the sander.

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BigRob777

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-19 7:16 PM
Post #34735 - In reply to #34734

Anton,
What kind of sander do you use? I'm saving up for one for my shop, though I have to sell my 3rd lathe before there'll be room. I'll also have to sell a few coffee tables first.

This is the first time I've read about anyone using a sander. I'm looking at the one Fine Woodworking Mag. rates highest, which is the woodmaster, I believe.
Thanks,
Rob

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Anton Gerner

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-20 6:26 AM
Post #34738 - In reply to #34735

I am using a Casolin twin belt sander. It is an older, but accurate machine.
1100mm wide.
You do have to be carefull, but you can get great results.
We finish sanding on the machine up to 180 grit.

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BigRob777

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-20 9:41 AM
Post #34739 - In reply to #34738

Anton,
That sounds like a nice machine, but way out of my price range. I'm looking at drum sanders.

Back to the topic:
Darryl,
I want to order some of your Unibond 800, plus some other items. Is the catalog coming out soon, or should I just order online?
Thanks,
Rob

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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-20 3:58 PM
Post #34743 - In reply to #34739

Rob,

Your catalog should be on its way but if you want to order glue now I would just do it on line. There's nothing in the catalog on the glue thats not already on the web site.

Darryl Keil

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BigRob777

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-20 5:07 PM
Post #34744 - In reply to #34743

Darryl,
Thanks, I'll do that.
Rob

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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-19 8:00 PM
Post #34736 - In reply to #34719

If you get good results on all your veneers with a PVA glue, even years down the road, thats great. I did not find that the case in all situations, veneers like mahogany crotch, other highly figured woods and ones under a high polish finish were never satisfactory for me with PVA glues, they just dont have the same level of rigidity. This doesn't mean I haven't used plenty of PVA for veneer, because I have, just never exclusively.

As far as cross linked PVA's, I have not found them any harder than regular PVA's with all the testing that I did. I do know for a fact that the cross linker will stain some veneers as they are usually acid salts or some other corrosive chemical.

Darryl Keil

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Glenn Ross

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-20 5:39 PM
Post #34745 - In reply to #34736

I have been using exclusively PVA glue for several years now, and I have generally had very good results - although most of my work has been fairly simple. However, I have recently run into an issue and I am wondering weather the PVA glue is to blame. I have been laying up a very tight (under 5"

radius using three layers of aircraft ply, with a layer of paperbacked veneer on the outside. After several hours in the press, I pull the piece off the form and it begins to overbend. Within a few minutes, the piece is very noticeably over bent. This seems bizarre to me because the tension in the piece would cause it to open up, not bend tighter. I thought it might be a result of an unbalanced panel, but I have tried pressing one with veneer on both sides, one with plastic laminate on the inside, veneer on the outside, etc, and I always get the same result. In fact, the balanced panel overbent more than the unbalanced one.
So, my question is, will unibond 800 take care of this problem? My gut feeling is "yes" because of it's better rigidity, and because the water in the PVA could be causing tensions in the piece as it dries.

I appreciate any help on this.

Attached file : DSC00017.JPG (36KB - 81 downloads)

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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-21 8:47 AM
Post #34746 - In reply to #34745

Glen,

You're getting a condition called "toe in". When the lamination have somewhat low resistance to the bend and, or, there are a fair number of them, the glue as it dries shrinks and pulls the radius tighter. Because a PVA has high water content and shrinks a fair amount you are getting this condition. You are correct in assuming a urea resin would do better, but it still may toe in a little as urea's have some water and do shrink a little, although much less. Epoxy may be another consideration because it has no water and virtually no shrinkage. The only issue here, is would the epoxy allow a little spring back since it wont have the extra pull that the PVA is giving you. Free form bent lamination can be tricky to get just right.

Another option is to have stiffer bending ply to counteract the toe in tendency but this is more experimentation to get the right balance.

Darryl Keil

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BigRob777

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-21 9:01 AM
Post #34747 - In reply to #34746

Darryl,
Ahh, from your 2nd dvd. Can you make sure that I ordered your first dvd? Back to the topic, I assume that directions for the blocker and Unibond come with the order?. What do you clean the foam rollers off with? Questions, questions..... but that's how I learn.
Thanks,
Rob

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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-21 1:44 PM
Post #34748 - In reply to #34747

Rob,

I checked your order and, yes, you did order the first DVD Working with Veneer. Instructions come with the glue and blocker. Clean up is a progression depending on how soon you get to it. First is with water, then warm water, then soap and warm water, then nothing will clean it up as the catalization process has gone too far.

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BigRob777

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-21 2:14 PM
Post #34749 - In reply to #34748

Awesome, thanks.
Rob

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Don Stephan

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-22 8:42 PM
Post #34761 - In reply to #34749

Just my personal opinion, . . . I don't bother cleaning the foam roller. I didn't want to risk buildup of cured urea formaldehyde glue in my waste plumbing pipes, and decided the amount of water used to clean a roller was too much of an impact on the environment. I mix the glue in a paper cup, pour directly from the cup onto the substrate to avoid having to clean a roller pan, and throw away the cup and roller pad when done. Still have to make sure the roller frame is clean, and have to clean the mixing whisk, but water usage now much less. Of course more natural resources are needed to make the roller pads I throw away instead of re-using, but I'm hoping my approach better for the environment. . .

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Larry Ciesla

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-31 1:26 PM
Post #34797 - In reply to #34710

I doubt that I can add much that has not already been said about Unibond 800, but apart from veneer applications, this glue is perfect for bentwood laminations. The glue is extremely rigid, far more rigid than PVA. My experience is that the rigidity results in virtually no spring back. The extra open time greatly reduces the level of stomach acid during this type of glue up. It also seem to be nearly waterproof.

Good luck

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Larry Ciesla

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-31 1:26 PM
Post #34798 - In reply to #34710

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BigRob777

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Subject : RE: Unibond 800 vs Titebond
Posted : 2008-07-31 1:45 PM
Post #34799 - In reply to #34798

I can't add anything at all to this, from an experiencial perspective, but I am now the proud owner of one gallon of each: yellow glue (titebond), yellow glue with pecan shells and unibond 800. I can see applications for all 3, but the titebond is just for joinery. I can't wait to start using it, but I have to assemble the million-part heavy lift platform, for my veneering set-up. More on that llater, in the other thread.

A special thank you to Darryl, for your list of times to not use pva (ie. water spill areas, horizontal surfaces and so forth). I'm going to copy it and print it out, and put it in my shop, by my glues.
Rob

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