Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-09-09 11:09 AM
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Steven Kenzer

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Subject : Rosewood
Posted : 2009-04-29 7:51 AM
Post #35370
I was wondering if anyone has experience pressing up Rosewood panels? Let's say Santos (Pau Ferro). I have a customer interested in using this for a kitchen project, a modern design with slab doors. My concern is what I read occasionally, that rosewood can be problematic in terms of checking, glue adhesion, finishing, etc.... Obviously, I don't want to introduce this idea and regret it later in the job. Any thoughts on this subject out there? Thanks in advance.


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-04-29 9:23 AM
Post #35371 - In reply to #35370
Steve,

Santo's or pau ferro as it's commonly called is a great veneer to work with. as for solid you may experience some of the things you mentioned.

It's a little irratating on the nose when sanding, but outside of that it has always been a good performer for me. A lot of people like to avoid the sap and only incorporate the heartwood, imho the sap is what gives the wood it additional character It finishes fantastic.

Pau ferro produces one of the best designs when using it as a table top . the grain just lends itself to some very dramatic end results.

Not knowing what the kitchen project consist of you may want to consider the grain before you do your final pressing. center matching instead of a running book match is probably the best way to go.

Craig
Attached file : SantosRosewood.jpg (40KB - 88 downloads)



 
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BigRob777

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-04-29 12:22 PM
Post #35372 - In reply to #35371
Steven,
Technically speaking, Pau Ferro is not a true rosewood. As for allergic reactions, they vary from nothing, to (in my case) severe. The first time I cut it (also called Morado and a few other names around the world), I failed to shower until the morning. I broke out all over my body, with something akin to a severe poison ivy reaction. It can cause severe lung irritation in some folks as well. Every time I touched the dust, which was on everything in my shop, I broke out. I didn't find out, until a month later, that it was the Bolivian Rosewood.

I'd try some out, as BR is one of the biggest "offenders" in the world of wood. Hopefully, it won't bother you, but of course, you're always better off using good dust collection and air cleaners.

That said, I am also allergic to all true rosewoods, but I can wash off afterwards and it doesn't give me any rash. I cut and sell pen blanks to pen turners and have cut lots of wood that would normally make me break out (padauk, walnut, rosewoods, ebony etc.), but except for an occasional bump, I've gone without any adverse reactions for about 3 years now.

Good luck.
Rob


 
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Steven Kenzer

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-04-29 1:42 PM
Post #35373 - In reply to #35371
Thanks Craig...I always appreciate what you have to say. A couple of things here. When you say "center match" are you referring to what I think of as a "slip match"? If so, is that because of light refraction issues? Also, just curious about glues you use on this species. I'd like to go PVA but I'm thinking Unibond is the safest bet on this. The kitchen will be a combination of wood slab doors (mdf core), contrasted with opaque lacquer doors occasionally... not sure the color tone yet. This is just heading into design development now so a lot is up for grabs. What finishes do you prefer with Pau Ferro? Lacquer? OIl Varnish? I have some samples here and you’re right..very beautiful veneer, not only in appearance but the quality of it. We would basically have no solid stock to deal with on this. Running grain might move horizontally across the room..that's yet to be determined. I'm not sure a dominating, somewhat bold grain pattern is the way to go but I am exploring this idea now. So, you've never seen any checking of the surface months afterwards? Maybe so, that this is more based on solid work although on WoodWeb I was reading a post about the veneer doing this. I realize though that different people take different approaches, some more casual then others. Maybe that's the reason why. Anyway..thanks for the feedback..great work.


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-04-29 7:09 PM
Post #35374 - In reply to #35373
steve,

Center match is a term used to describe a particular way to lay up a panel's to produce a symmetrical grain pattern. with pau ferro it would be critical. pau ferro has a very "fluid" grain pattern it's all over the place. very striking and vivid both in grain and in color. reds browns tans and even black all on one leaf.

to simply use a running match lay up would not give you symmetry. the grain pattern in a single bundle of pau ferro can change dramaticlly from the first sheet to the 10th sheet.

lets use a wall panel as an example. say you have 10 sheets that are 4 x 8 ,running the width of a forty foot wall . if you approached it as a running match by the time you got to the tenth panel your veneer grain pattern would either be running down hill or up hill and the human eye would automatically pick up the lack up symmerty.

now the same situation but you are starting from the center and working out toward the ends. if the grain on the right is running uphill so would the grain on the left. woods that have a very pronounced grain pattern have a way of defining the room they reside in.

the best example I could find of how a running match can draw your eye right to it is the picture I attached. take a look at the bottom of the couch starting at the right side. you will notice two little "arms" protruding from the dark black center of the macassar ebony veneer. now follow that across to the left side. notice that the "little arms" are now way down at the bottom and that the grain is desending from high on the right and low on the left? not that that issue ruins the piece, it a stunning piece of work.

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg28/customone/32_002.jpg


If that was laid up using a center match both side would look symmetrical. low in the center, ending up high on both ends. sort of like a "v" pattern.

a wood like pau ferro with the very pronounced grain should be approached very carefully so as not to confuse the eye. you don't want to put someone head on a swivel.

slip matching prevents what is called "barber pole" that is what you described a light and dark light refraction that occurs with book matching . this is from the tight and loose side of the veneer.

as for a finish ... I'm a full fill, high gloss type of guy. taking into consideration that it's a kitchen I would look at a conversion varnish as opposed to regular lacquer. It's a far more durable finish.

I also added a picture of a small pau ferro end table( maker unknown) with a full fill high gloss finish.

The only species I have ever encounter that is prone to checking is crotch mahogany and some other crotch species. pau ferro , for me anyway, has always been well behaved.

As for running it horizontal, not something I would do but I don't want to sway anyone in either direction. I'm trying to get a mental picture of the grain running horizontal and my mind is not cooperating.

Don't forget to share some photos with everyone when your done.

Craig
Attached file : 002e.jpg (22KB - 90 downloads)



 
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Don Stephan

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-04-29 8:44 PM
Post #35375 - In reply to #35374
Okay, Craig, you've taught me a new match. If I understand corrently your "center match", using 8 leaves of veneer, the first four leaves are slip matched using their front sides (1F, 2F, 3F, 4F), leaves 4 and 5 are actually bookmatched (4F, 5R), and the last three are slip matched with leaf 5 on their reverse sides (6R, 7R, 8R)?
This is an interesting match concept, even if it's not what you meant.
Always helpful to read your posts.
Don


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-04-29 9:47 PM
Post #35377 - In reply to #35375
not exactly.... center matching does not involve slip matching .
lets say you have a flitch of veneer that has 1000 sqft. the bundle count is ten bundles and each bundle contains 100 sqft. each bundle is consecutive as it was sliced from the log, so each bundle has a bar coded label on it indicating the sequence. so you have ten bundles 1 thru 10.

now you take bundles 1 thru 5 and set those to the right and bundles 6 thru 10 and set them to the left. starting with bundle 5 you would make your lay up for your right side, then starting with bundle 6 your make your lay up for the left side, when lay up 5 comes together with lay up 6 it should be at the center gap of the adjoining cabinets when you start your lay ups you are starting from the center of whatever your laying up. in Steves case it would be the center cabinet of the bank of cabinets.

when doing a center match( and i forgot to mention this) all leaves of veneer on the panel are the same width and the joint line in the veneer is dead center of the panel on each panel you lay up. the object of center matching is symmetry. it produces more waste but is far more pleasing to the eye, particularly with a grain like pau ferro.

In Steves case he should pay not attention to the cabinet carcasses , and approach it as if the doors were wall panels so that the grain pattern is symmetrical when standing in front of a bank of cabinets. both uppers and base cabinets. in theory the wood grain should flow from the top down from the upper cabinet to the drawer front to the base cabinet door.

thats in theory, but Steve can do it whatever way he feels is best.

when center matching it still involves book matching the leaves of veneer, but the placement of the lay up is critical. so if you have 10 panels you should start your lay up on the edge of panel 5 , work out towards panel one, and start panel 6 and work out towards panel 10. whatever the grain does it will be symmetrical on both sides of the center line.

Craig


 
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Steven Kenzer

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-04-29 9:25 PM
Post #35376 - In reply to #35374
Craig, thanks so much for the in depth reply. I was aware of the "climbing" or "drooping" pattern a slip match can produce. I know typically, the slip is preferred for quartered and straight grained stock. However, I hadn’t tuned in to the center match you discussed so I really appreciate that info. To be honest, I'm not sure what direction this kitchen species will take now. The Pau Ferro, as beautiful as it is, might be too busy for the client. It had been a thought, that ended up being part of a conversation with them so I started diving in, giving it consideration. I'll let you know where we end up with this. I'd say 95% of my kitchens have conversion varnish (satin duravar). It's a pretty fool proof finish for me....lays down beautifully. Is that settee yours..something you built? Very pleasing piece. elegant. Yes, the horizontal grain is something that typically isn't considered much. For some reason, I've been intrigued with this idea....whether or not the Pau Ferro is appropriate for this is another story. I find the landscape affect appealing but you really do need to use the appropriate wood. Anyway, thanks again for your expertise and insight...it's great to get feedback like yours.


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-04-29 10:06 PM
Post #35378 - In reply to #35376
No the settee is not mine. oddly enough its Frank Pollaros. I'm sure Frank had a good reason for doing it that way. when your as good as Frank is I guess you can do what ever you want.

I have seen some kitchens that have had horizontal grain pattern but the species was things like wenge, bamboo, and fine striped mac ebony. the problem with horizontal grain direction on a large run of cabinets is "level". the grain can trick the eye and everything can look like it's un-level. no matter how plumb the cabinets are.

Craig


 
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ckurak

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-04-30 9:45 AM
Post #35379 - In reply to #35374
Craig,

You say you are "a full fill, high gloss type of guy."

Most of my finishing work has a satin sheen, but I would like to add to my offerings. What type of finishing materials do you use to get the high gloss, full fill look?

Also, I normally work with water-borne materials (health, safety issues, etc.). Are there water-borne materials for doing this?

Thanks,

Charles


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-04-30 1:17 PM
Post #35380 - In reply to #35379
Charles,

There are several products available. First there is ppg clear coat available at auto finishers stores. it is nothing more than auto clear coat. very expensive and imho is the best way to go to produce a highly durable deep crystal clear finish. the draw back is that I am not aware of a water-borne product. the cost per gallon ranges from 175.00 to 250.00 per gallon for the clear coat, plus 90 for the catalyst, and another 35.00 per gallon for the reducer.
my rational for that product is simply this.... if you can spray it on a car, drive all over the place, run it thru a car wash, have it sit in the hot sun , be pelted with hail, rain wind snow, acid rain , and it still holds up, in theory it should stand the test of time on a table top or furniture.

There is another product called Polane. it's a high solid content polyurethane enamel . available in color or clear and water white clear. it can be purchased thru sherwinn williams distributors. used extensively in the metal coating industry and woodworking profession. if you look at the head of a wood golf club and notice the deep high gloss finish , it's a polyurethane enamel.

Cost per gallon is anywhere from 50 to 60 per gallon, 30 to 40 for the catalyst, and 20.00 for the reducer. tradition hvlp or standard spray equiptment can be used . the good part for you is that the product does come in a water-borne version and I have attached the info and website.


with all full fill finishes be prepared to wet sand. from 600 to 2000 grit. followed by polishing compounds from 3M. they have fancy names that i cant recite off the top of my head but they are nothing more that pumice suspended in a binder and rotten stone suspended in a binder.

never mind it came to me

one is 3Mperfect-it rubbing compound and the other is 3M finesse-it machine polish. both should be used with a high speed buffer such a a makita buffer.

I dont want to cast the illusion that full fill finish is laborious, it does however require a little bit more effort to be effective. here is the info for Polane :


August 21, 2007
New POLANE® 2K Acrylic Waterborne Enamel Coatings From Sherwin-Williams Can Be Used On Wood, Metal, Or Plastic

Ideal for Interior Building Products, New Low VOC, HAPs-free Acrylic Waterborne Enamel Coatings Offer Four-Hour Potlife

New POLANE® 2K Acrylic Waterborne Enamel coatings from Sherwin-Williams are HAPS-free, very low VOC, catalyzed, high performance coatings. With good color and gloss retention, the coatings offer a four-hour plus potlife for extended working time.

Ideal for interior building applications and selective exterior use, POLANE® 2K Acrylic Waterborne Enamel coatings can be used on metal, plastic or wood with appropriate primer, basecoat or pretreatment system. They are available in clear and blend monochromatics and may be applied by conventional HVLP or air-assisted airless spray.

The Sherwin-Williams Chemical Coatings Division, celebrating 140 years of experience in products finishing technology, serves the product finishing industry through a North American network of company-owned locations and with expanding global reach. Sherwin-Williams broad line of low-VOC coatings, full range of technical support and just-in-time distribution capabilities allows finishers to specify quality coatings that provide innovative solutions with the assurance of regulatory compliance. For a better finish, visit Sherwin-Williams on the Internet at www.sherwin-williams.com/oem or to have a representative contact you, call 1-800-524-5979.

here is the website link:


http://www.sherwin-williams.com/oem/us/eng/products/polane_hs_enamel/


Craig




 
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ckurak

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-04-30 11:14 PM
Post #35383 - In reply to #35380
Craig,

Thank you, sir.

Charles


 
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ckurak

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-05-17 10:40 PM
Post #35419 - In reply to #35380
Craig,

When you mentioned Makita buffer, is this what you had in mind?

http://www.amazon.com/Makita-9227C-Variable-Ergonomic-Loop-Handle/dp/B0000223IZ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1242614130&sr=8-2

This is the "Makita 9227C 7-Inch Variable Speed Hook and Loop Polisher/Sander with Ergonomic Loop-Handle."

Thanks,
Charles


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-05-18 7:09 AM
Post #35420 - In reply to #35419
Ckurak,

Yes sir that's the the exact one. the second polishing head is the first one you would use. you will still need one more, which can be gotten at a auto finishers store. it is a sponge type with dimples.

Craig


Attached file : autogeek_2051_33604656.gif (16KB - 46 downloads)



 
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ckurak

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-05-18 1:10 PM
Post #35423 - In reply to #35380
Craig,

When I joined this conversation a few weeks ago, I was gathering ideas for future potential work, but did not have any specific projects in mind. Now, one of my designers is bringing me a project that includes a 7' curved wood counter, decorative veneer inlay, and possibly rosewood veneer for the remainder of the counter. And, she wants a gloss finish. Very interesting timing!

OK, so I have two choices for the topcoat: ppg clear or Sherwin-Williams Polane. I thought about the idea of having a body shop apply the clear coat for me. However, the thought of spending LOTS of hours and materials on this counter and risking it being damaged by an outsider just doesn't pass my sleep test. So, I am probably heading toward the Polane since I do not have an explosion-proof spray environment. My spray area is set up for water-borne.

Now, before I apply the clear coat, would you recommend using a grain filler? I am not sure of the species selection yet, as the project is still in the design stage, but I have had some past experience with some samples that raise some questions. On the sample, I did NOT use a grain filler. I used numerous (6-8?) coats of clear polyurethane (sanding in between) to get a smooth finish. The final finish was polished up to about 2000 grit if I remember correctly. Whatever the final grit was, I had a nice glossy finish. Then, I set the panel aside. A few weeks or months later, I noticed that the polyurethane shrank in the locations where it had acted as a filler. So, on many of the seams, one can see valleys in the topcoat.

Obviously, this was not a good result. How do you handle this? Filler? What kind? Other comments?

Thanks,

Charles


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-05-18 10:19 PM
Post #35425 - In reply to #35423
Churak,

the problem with the poly may have been mil thickness related. some coatings can not exceed a certain mil thickness or problems like shrinking and cracking will occur.

as for paste filler, I say not needed. most fillers contain linseed oils as binders and can have adverse affects with certain finishes. if you choose to use the Polane you can buy the sealer for the product and this will seal the grain. or you can just use the Polane top coat as a sealer just dilute it a little thinner. Polane is a high solids product and you will see results within two coats. unlike the poly there is no mil problem and 6 to 8 coats is not a problem. it is over kill however as you should have a full fill finish on the second coat. somewhere around 3 to 4 coats is way more than needed. less is more with polane

If you go the PPG route, the process is the same. buying sealer for either product is just a cheaper way to prep the surface. the sealer in both case regardless of what product you use just sand a little easier.

my theroy has always been if the sealer or top coat produce a fine white powder when sanding it's a winner. I used an acrylic lacquer once and it was like sanding granite. terrible results.

Another product you may want to consider is Behlens rock hard table top finish. it is what it say's "rock hard" when dried. not a water borne product however.

Give the Polane a whirl you won't be disappointed.

by the way the photo of the buffing pad is a 3m product, finesse-it buffing pad is the name of it.


Craig


 
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Steven Kenzer

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-05-28 5:24 PM
Post #35443 - In reply to #35374
"slip matching prevents what is called "barber pole" that is what you described a light and dark light refraction that occurs with book matching . this is from the tight and loose side of the veneer."..Craig

I'm returning to this thread because of the issue Craig briefly describes above. I'm more then aware of the barber pole affect as are most/all people involved with veneering. It seems inevitable when book-matching, although some woods seem to exhibit it more then others, I find. I'm struggling with a job I'll be using Quartered Koa on. It's quite a beautiful veneer....linear/quartered, yes, but also does have enough subtle wave periodically, that I'm wishing/wanting to book-match it. BUT...this light refraction issue really crawls under my skin. It's a kitchen (Pau Ferro became Koa) and there will be fairly long runs of doors/details. I'm curious how others approach this issue.....technically and aesthetically. Is there a way to minimize the barber pole? Finer sanding perhaps? Or is it simply a matter of careful balancing and accepting this as part of the look...light, dark, light, dark, etc... I'm about to run sample panels, slipped and booked, to show the client. I feel that's the safest way to go..no surprises...I'll explain to them the options. I'm just curious how others approach this subject matter. Thanks Forum...always a pleasure.


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-05-28 6:34 PM
Post #35444 - In reply to #35443
Steve,

If you book match you may want to consider using a natural stain to counter act the "barber pole" syndrome. prior to staining use a pre-stain conditioner. this will absorb into the grain and give the stain a uniform color appearance. if the kitchen get's a lot of sun light mother nature will do the rest by darkening the koa. avoid a UV resistant finish so the sun can darken the cabinets uniformly. you could also put a toner in your finish to also accomplish a uniform color. lighter woods are more pronounced with the barber pole syndrome than dark woods.


If you decide to slip match you may want to "random" slip match instead of "consecutive" slip match. random slip match will give the solid wood appearance. the problem you may(or may not) encounter with consecutive slip matching is what is called "leaning", your veneer joints may be plumb and straight but any grain that leans to the left or right may give the appearance that the door is "leaning", multiplied over a series of doors and the whole bank of cabinets could look like it's leaning.

see attached photo

Koa job? sweeeet!


Craig
Attached file : BarberPole-D.jpg (7KB - 51 downloads)



 
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Steven Kenzer

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-05-28 7:02 PM
Post #35445 - In reply to #35444
The Koa coloring is awfully nice.....I'm hesitant to introduce a stain, unless you meant a clear stain when you used the word "natural". Did you? Do you think the toner would disguise the barber pole effect? I guess I thought it would shade things evenly, therefore light would remain light, dark remain dark. I'll probably spray one of the samples with a toner to see although again....the wood color being so nice, I'd love to simply show this by itself. I'm intrigued with the random slip...thanks for that thought. What's interesting about you saying this is that some other room details in this home are using asymmetry, not symmetry, as a basis of design (contemporary feel). The Random Slip really could be the ticket here...samples and time will tell. By the way..your image came through very small..you might want to resend it at a higher resolution. It looks like a slip-match.......is that right? If so, why the barber pole? Thanks for the feedback, Craig.

S



 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-05-28 7:24 PM
Post #35447 - In reply to #35445
Yes, I meant clear stain . the photo shows no barber pole , but rather "leaning" effect. And yes I appears to be slip matched.

I've never rely paid much mind to barber pole, kinda viewed it as "the mature of the beast". might not even wanna mention it to your customer.

Craig




 
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Brad

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-05-29 11:10 AM
Post #35450 - In reply to #35447
Craig, it sounds like Steven has a pretty nice straight grained veneer. Do you think the toning trick would work as well on a burl or figured veneer? After getting a reply from one on another forum about the appartent mismatching of my passage door veneer (it was a sequence match crotch veneer) I asked some finishing gurus about toning and it seemed like it would have been very difficult to reduce the light effect.

I think the barber pole effect tends to boil down to a personal preference. I have shown some friends the effect and they think it is pretty cool whereas I can see it in the faces of others that they think I did something wrong and dont believe me when I explain. Those that dont like it think wood should be perfectly uniform.

I must applaud you for the time you take answering and the knowledge you share with everyone here.

Brad


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-06-03 9:01 PM
Post #35471 - In reply to #35450
Brad,

To be honest with you I have never really seen a situation where the barber pole effect was a cause for concern or ended up being an eye sore. light woods like maple or english sycamore are notorious for the barber pole effect. as for walnut burl being as dark as it is shouldn't be that noticeable. toning the finish helps but does not completely hide the effects of barber pole.

I would only slip match if it were specified


 
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BigRob777

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-05-28 7:05 PM
Post #35446 - In reply to #35444
I know that I'm mostly a lurker here, but that's because I haven't done any veneering yet (to speak of). You are all such a wealth of information. The fact that was just pointed out by Craig, that darker wood is less obvious with the opposing chattoyance factor (I think that's what barber poling means), will really help me in the future. Thanks so much. I plan to do a lot of work with waterfall bubinga and this info will help me to be more at ease with bookmatching the material.

I'm going to finally be caught up with my pen blank cutting (man, that's rough on the old back) and I should be able to do some veneering this weekend.

Rob

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/BigRob777/waterfallbubinga.jpg


 
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Don Stephan

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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: Rosewood
Posted : 2009-05-28 7:42 PM
Post #35448 - In reply to #35444
Saw a couple paragraphs when I was reviewing Lincoln's veneering book a couple weeks ago that might explain "barber pole" effect. It suggested that the light-dark effect in bookmatching due to pores of the wood being diagonal to the surface of the veneer. turn the sheet over and the pores point to the left instead of to the right, or versa visa, so light reflecting differently. Same concept as looking along a cat's back from head to tail versus from tail to head. Don't know if it is true, but sounds reasonable. (So why does my cat always walk ON the keyboard instead of AROUND it?)
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