Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-09-09 11:09 AM
22 replies, 8996 viewings
 
back
Navigate threads:
< Previous Thread :: Next Thread >
 
^ Top
Tony Leonard

Posts: 11

Joined: 2012-06-13
Location: Memphis - TN

User Profile 
Subject : Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-07-09 10:53 AM
Post #36686
I'm building a round tabletop (18" diameter). I'm trying to figure out the best method of attaching the cross banding? I've seen some folks apply the radial pattern, then rout a recess for the border. I've also seen some folks cut it and tape the whole top together (radial pattern with border pieces) and then glue that on the substrate. I am planning on using a 1/16" black inlay to separate the main field from the border. The materials are figured makore and satinwood. Nice veneer- just hope I can pull this off! Thanks for the help.

Oh, any ideas and gluing up the veneer around the edges? How about making the inlay groove?


Tony



 
^ Top
Don Stephan

Posts: 825

Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-07-09 8:03 PM
Post #36689 - In reply to #36686
I was taught by Paul Shurch to assemble the entire veneer pattern, then glue as one to the substrate.


 
^ Top
craig tufankjian

Posts: 308

Joined: 2004-02-01
Location: syracuse ny 13208

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-07-10 11:54 AM
Post #36692 - In reply to #36686
The safe approach is to do the lay-up then apply to what ever substrate your using. Reason being it's better to do all the veneer work before gluing to the substrate so you don't end up with a wasted substrate in case thing go bad....

Whatever your approach you should two-ply the lay-up after the face is complete.

The edge , if you intend to veneer the edge can be done in halves with a band clamp, fitting the final piece.

AS for the inlay groove that depends on what approach you use. What's the width of the inlay?


 
^ Top
Tony Leonard

Posts: 11

Joined: 2012-06-13
Location: Memphis - TN

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-07-10 2:55 PM
Post #36694 - In reply to #36692
Thanks. The inlay is 1/16".

Tony


 
^ Top
Don Stephan

Posts: 825

Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-07-18 6:34 AM
Post #36695 - In reply to #36694
One can always make a practice piece using inexpensive veneers and substrate to gain experience and confidence. I second Craig's two ply suggestion, and would certainly do one with less expensive veneer first.

You might find a smaller radius difficult for bending a 1/16" strip around the circle. It might be necessary to simply cut a ring out of veneer. I had to use this approach for smallish ovals on a project years ago. Paul Schurch's approach, excellently presented on his videos, makes this easier than it would otherwise seem.


 
^ Top
Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-07-18 12:08 PM
Post #36696 - In reply to #36694
If your inlay is 1/16" then it will be flexible enough, (I'm assuming here that its stripped out of a piece of veneer, not solid) to sandwich between the main field and the short grain boarder as you pull the two together with veneer tape. This way you can press the entire top including the inlay in one shot.

Darryl Keil


 
^ Top
Tony Leonard

Posts: 11

Joined: 2012-06-13
Location: Memphis - TN

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-07-30 8:33 AM
Post #36704 - In reply to #36696
Thanks all. So, once I get all my pie wedges taped up, what is the best way to cut it round? I have been experimenting with an Xacto knife on a compass. The blade is flexible and will bend. I tried starting with just a scratch. That helped. I then put blue tape over the cut. That seemed to help a little too. Just wondering if there is a better ide aout there? Thanks for all the help.

Tony


 
^ Top
Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-07-30 2:53 PM
Post #36705 - In reply to #36704
The way I do this is to draw the circle on the veneer with a compass, then with the same radius make a 1/4" masonite template about 1/4 of the circle. I take this template and masking tape it the the veneer so the edge of the template is lined up with the pencil line drawn on the veneer previously. Then I simply use a Xacto knife with light strokes, the template as my guide. Once I've cut through the veneer where the template is, I move it and retape in place until the circle is completely cut out.

You can cut the short grain border pieces seperately using the same template or you can place it under the main veneer and do both at the same time. With the short grain border I only tape half the circle up at a time because adding the 1/16" inlay increase the circumference just a little and I'll need a bit more to complete the circle when I tape all three components together, the main field, the short grain border and the inlay.

Hope this makes sense.

Darryl Keil


 
^ Top
Tony Leonard

Posts: 11

Joined: 2012-06-13
Location: Memphis - TN

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-08-01 9:32 AM
Post #36707 - In reply to #36705
Thanks. That does make sense and seems like it would be easier than my compass method. I like too that the template will hold the veneer and compress any small waves. I just ordered a fresh bottle of Unibond800 to glue it down with.

Thanks very much for the help. much appreciated.

Tony


 
^ Top
craig tufankjian

Posts: 308

Joined: 2004-02-01
Location: syracuse ny 13208

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-07-30 7:10 PM
Post #36706 - In reply to #36704
I think based on the information your provided you may want to consider the router method.Of all the methods out there it , IMHO , would be the least confusing and difficult.

I assume this is what your shooting for.....

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg28/customone/Picture7-7.png

Without ISO lines

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg28/customone/Picture8-7.png


My approach would to concentrate on the field veneer and not concern myself with the cross band or inlay right now.You didn't mention how many pie sections you were doing so my pictorial below will be an 8 piece match. Amount of piece really makes no difference just more work. Even for the more experienced veneer craftsman trying to do the whole lay up then pressing can be a daunting task.

First the field, once I had my field veneer laid up and it looked good I flip it over on the glue side and check it for square. If I have a true 90 degree on my veneer joints then I do a lay up for the back. With the field and back laid up Then I two-ply the lay ups. You don't have too, but it's makes life a lot easier. The field veneer is in the shape of an octagon, The back I just do a slip match. You can do a radial but at 18 inches slip match is fine.

Your field lay up should look like this....All veneer of course.

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg28/customone/Picture13-3.png

Once my field and back was done I set them aside and concentrate on the substrate. In this case MDF. I route a circle the exact width of both field and back veneer. Once the substrate is routed and checked I press both face and back to the circular substrate. So in essence I have to octagons glue to a cirle of MDF

Should look like this....MDF

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg28/customone/Picture17-5.png

Now I set up a router trammel so I can route not only the finished diameter of the tale top but the recesses for the satinwood cross band. No inlay at this time.That will be the last thing I do.

Routed piece.....

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg28/customone/Picture18-3.png

The first route is full depth to size the top, One the top is at its final diameter I veneer the edge with satinwood. Then the router trammel is reset to route out a shallow rabbit for the satinwood.So in essence I am routing the rabbit and trimming the edge veneer at the same time. Now I am ready to start making my satinwood cross band and attaching it to the field. That will be Part 2. How to radius the satinwood border.










 
^ Top
Tony Leonard

Posts: 11

Joined: 2012-06-13
Location: Memphis - TN

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-08-01 9:35 AM
Post #36708 - In reply to #36706
Thanks Craig. Yes, that is pretty much exactly it. I'm much more comfortable with a knife than a router though. So, I'm really leaning toward that. I may experiment a little and see which works better for me. I feel like if I assemble the whole top at once, I can correct any issues as I go vs. the router messign up the whole thing.

Tony


 
^ Top
Tony Leonard

Posts: 11

Joined: 2012-06-13
Location: Memphis - TN

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-08-06 2:07 PM
Post #36712 - In reply to #36708
That worked great Daryl. Thanks very much for the help. I got the field cut round and aplpied the inlay and cross banding. Almost ready for glue. I found a book on marquetry that showed a technique to apply teh inlay and the cross banding. I put blue tape on the glue side such that it overhung the cut edge about 1/4". That held the inlay good enough so that I could install the cross banding. A little tweaking here and there, but it went pretty well.

Tony
Attached file : IMG_3919 (Small) (Small) (Mobile).JPG (48KB - 82 downloads)



 
^ Top
Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-08-07 1:34 PM
Post #36713 - In reply to #36712
Glad to hear its working out. Saw the picture, looks like its coming out well.

Darryl Keil


 
^ Top
Steven Kenzer

Posts: 57

Joined: 2008-07-16
Location: Putney, VT

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-08-01 9:23 PM
Post #36709 - In reply to #36706
Craig, a little off topic but.....does your cad program (Ashlar Vellum?) contain those veneer textures or are you pulling images off sites like Certainly Wood to create that? Just curious and sorry for pulling away from the thread.


 
^ Top
craig tufankjian

Posts: 308

Joined: 2004-02-01
Location: syracuse ny 13208

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-08-02 11:43 AM
Post #36710 - In reply to #36709
Tony,

Whatever way is the most comfortable.

Steve,

No, the texture's with AV are too low res and not an accurate depiction of particular species. I don't use AV as a render software. Not very good as a photo realistic render software. I use the actual physical veneer, splice it and then scan it to produce a real world/real time PNG/JPEG photo. PNG is better than JPEG.

The problem with pulling photo's of sites is most are not HI-RES and they have to much specular( hots spots from the flash of whatever camera was used) and shadows that show up in the render. And of course most are just type samples of the species. For photo realistic, the best approach is to have the actual veneer and scan it.

I attached some samples. Both are real time/real world.

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg28/customone/Picture9-8.png

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg28/customone/Picture15-5.png

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg28/customone/Picture13-4.png

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg28/customone/Picture16-6.png

What CAD software are you using? 2D or 3D?


 
^ Top
Steven Kenzer

Posts: 57

Joined: 2008-07-16
Location: Putney, VT

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-08-13 9:46 PM
Post #36720 - In reply to #36710
Craig, I use Vectorworks Architect, 2D and 3D. So, I guess you press up, spray and then scan? I've always struggled with inserting veneer textures and never considered just scanning them myself. Such a smart idea.....allows you to render exactly what you're using on a piece. I'm accomplished in 2D (think shop drawings) but have been pushing into 3D for quite awhile now. So, you don't use AV as your rendering software? If not, what do you use? Also, just curious..what is it about PING that is better then a JPEG format? Really beautiful work, Craig......your drawings as well as the actual piece. Thanks for the images and info.


 
^ Top
Tony Leonard

Posts: 11

Joined: 2012-06-13
Location: Memphis - TN

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-08-15 1:28 PM
Post #36721 - In reply to #36720
Ok, got the top all glued up and will make it round this weekend. Now, I've done edges on rectangular pieces a few times. Any tricks to covering the edges of a round taple? I saw an article where the author used a round caul and a strap clamp and glued a section at a time. Not much detail on the technique though. I'm concerned about getting edges lined up, trimming, and glue. Any advice would be appreciated!

Thanks,

Tony


 
^ Top
Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-08-15 1:32 PM
Post #36722 - In reply to #36721
Are you doing the edges with a short grain veneer border, veneer running horizontally, or a thin solid wood border.

Darryl Keil


 
^ Top
Tony Leonard

Posts: 11

Joined: 2012-06-13
Location: Memphis - TN

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-08-15 3:38 PM
Post #36723 - In reply to #36722
I am planning on using the same satin wood veneer as the cross banding with the grain running vertically.

Tony


 
^ Top
Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-08-16 6:03 AM
Post #36724 - In reply to #36723
I would suggest making the cross banded border into a two ply. First, glue up a strip, long enough to go completely around the table, of satin wood veneer with one piece long grain and the other short grain. Short grain satin wood by itself will be quite prone to coming apart in pieces and the two ply will hold everything together quite nicely.

Then I would use a band clamp and a piece of 3/8 bending ply as a caul to clamp it to your table. Apply glue to the table edge except in about the last 6" with the return seam of the two ply in the middle of this unglued area. After the edging is glued on you cut through at the overlap in the unglued section, apply glue and clamp one more time.

Darryl Keil


 
^ Top
Tony Leonard

Posts: 11

Joined: 2012-06-13
Location: Memphis - TN

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-08-16 9:25 AM
Post #36725 - In reply to #36724
Thanks. I'll give that a try. I didn't realize that the satin wood would be prone to splitting. I have used it before, but on flat edges.

Tony


 
^ Top
Tony Leonard

Posts: 11

Joined: 2012-06-13
Location: Memphis - TN

User Profile 
Subject : Progress Report
Posted : 2012-08-27 1:39 PM
Post #36734 - In reply to #36725
I finished the edge banding this weekend. Al I have left to do is add a small black "dot" in the center. I was trying out different size dots and I think smaller is better. I ended up applying the banding in sections to make it more manageable. I used a piece of cork covered with packing tape as a backer. My strap clamp didn't apply enough force to close up all the tiny gaps (satinwood was not perefectly flat), so I used blue tape to pull the edge towards the center. That closed everything up quite well. I bet I used a half a roll of blue tape! I used liquid hide glue sicne it gave me plenty of time to situate everything and it dries nice and hard but cleans up well. Only a couple of little issues that were not hard to clean up. Satin wood is not the easiest wood work with but the payoff is worth it. Can't wait to start finishing and see it and the makroe come alive.

The top looks pretty rough in this pic becuase I had just released a puck that I had double sided taped to the center to guide the router trammel. Mineral spirits dissolves the tape adhesive (I made sure before I stuck it on!). Also tested it on the glue. Is there a solvent for cured Unibond?

Thanks everybody for the help. I appreciate it.

Tony


 
^ Top
craig tufankjian

Posts: 308

Joined: 2004-02-01
Location: syracuse ny 13208

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Cross Band Border on Round Table?
Posted : 2012-08-27 6:01 PM
Post #36735 - In reply to #36720
Steve, render software is V-ray. No, I just scan raw veneer or wood. The finish be it flat , semi or high gloss full fill can be done in the render process.The use of a PNG instead of jpeg is because of compression and no loss of pixel quality. A PNG can be copied endless times without quality loss.

You may want to look at Cinema 4d which is compatible with Vectorworks, I use that as well and it is very good for casework and furniture.

Excellent line drawings and architecturals on your site. Nice work as well..
back
Navigate threads:
< Previous Thread :: Next Thread >
Legend      Notification  
Administrator
Forum Moderator
Registered User
Unregistered User
 Toggle e-mail notification


Logo by MAZY
Running MegaBBS ASP Forum Software v1.5.14b public beta