Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-09-09 11:09 AM
19 replies, 7355 viewings

 
back
Navigate threads:
< Previous Thread :: Next Thread >
 
^ Top
Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

User Profile
 
Subject : Vacuum Veneer Puzzler
Posted : 2004-01-02 2:34 PM
Post #31157

In the spirit of Car talk’s puzzler (a quiz on a great radio talk show on public radio about car repair) I thought a vacuum veneer puzzler might be fun. It goes like this, I will pose a problem, and the first person to guess the correct cause will win a free gallon of Unibond 800.

So here it is. A customer who recently purchased a press called to describe a problem he was having. With his press set up and nothing in the bag except a 4’x 4’ platen, his press would recycle approximately every 5 seconds. Shutting off at 25”HG and back on at 21”HG. After about 20 times it would finally shut off and stay off for a while with the vacuum gauge showing just slightly above 21”HG. I knew this scenario to be what is called “flow restriction” not a leakage problem. A leak would recycle continuously where a flow restriction will stabilize eventually when the trapped air in the bag finally makes it to the pump. In this situation, air in the bag cannot reach the pump as fast as it wants to pull it due to some restriction. The switch, which is close to the pump, reads full vacuum and shuts the pump off. Immediately or within a few seconds, the air on the other side of the restriction makes it to the switch and turns the pump back on. The pump will recycle continuously like this until the air on the bag side of the restriction reaches the switches shut off point. Common causes are, something jammed in the hose, a clogged filter element, or glue in the grooves of the platen right around the exit hole. Because the customer was using the press for the first time, I knew it was not a clogged filter and I had him check the hose, which was clear. I even had him e-mail a picture of his platen to make sure it was done right. He had used a sheet of 3/4"MDF, which was nicely lacquered to prevent glue adhesion, and the 1/8” grid of table saw grooves were properly cut over the entire platen surface as well as through the platen sleeve as instructed.

At a complete loss to identify the problem I sent him another vacuum press and bag. A few days later he called back to say the problem was exactly the same. At this, I had him return both presses, bags, and the platen he had e-mailed me the picture of. I wanted to duplicate the exact problem he was experiencing.

When the packages arrived I opened up the two presses, bags, and platen. I took one look at the platen and knew exactly what the problem was. I set up one of the presses with his platen and sure enough, the results were exactly as he described.

What was causing the flow restriction, and why? Note, all the information you need to identify the cause is within this description.

Sincerely
Darryl Keil



 
^ Top
Roger S. Barga

 
Subject : RE: Vacuum Veneer Puzzler
Posted : 2004-01-02 4:31 PM
Post #31159 - In reply to #31157

Assuming the person cut a grid of 1/8" air channels in the platen to facilitate air evacuation, my best guess is that these channels (grooves) didn't pass over the hole cut into the platen. In this case, the press would pull the bag over the hole and the press would shut off.

I experienced a similar problem when the bottom caul was not positioned over the 5/8" hole and when I switched on my press the vac pressure pulled the bag over the hole and closed it up, so this might also be the cause.

Roger



 
^ Top
Carl Morrell

 
Subject : RE: Vacuum Veneer Puzzler
Posted : 2004-01-02 6:49 PM
Post #31161 - In reply to #31157

I doubt a photo of the entire platen would have revealed the detail of hte grooves. My guess is the grooves were not deep enough.


 
^ Top
Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

User Profile
 
Subject : RE: Vacuum Veneer Puzzler
Posted : 2004-01-03 9:54 AM
Post #31162 - In reply to #31161

The grooves were cut through the platen sleeve properly and they were cut at a good depth.

Keep trying!

Sincerely
Darryl Keil


 
^ Top
Earl Kelly

 
Subject : RE: Vacuum Veneer Puzzler
Posted : 2004-01-03 11:16 AM
Post #31163 - In reply to #31157

He had a 4x4 platen in a 4x8 bag with the c clip on the end. And because of the Laquer the bag adheered tightly to the edge of the platen, restricting the air movement to the grooves. This is the only senario I can think of since you took the time to assemble and operate to find the problem. Anyother problem with the platen would have been obvious without assembly.


 
^ Top
Dr Ray Dewey

Posts: 2

Joined: 2003-12-16
Location: toronto, Ontario Canada

User Profile
 
Subject : RE: Vacuum Veneer Puzzler
Posted : 2004-01-03 1:37 PM
Post #31164 - In reply to #31157

The nylon adapter was twisted and the notches in it did not line up with the grooves??


 
^ Top
Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

User Profile
 
Subject : RE: Vacuum Veneer Puzzler
Posted : 2004-01-03 3:48 PM
Post #31165 - In reply to #31164

The twisted nylon adapter is an excellent guess and I have seen that happen. In this case it was not the problem.


Yes, it was a 4'x4' platen in a 4'x8' bag but that did not cause the problem. I did set it up to confirm what I saw but as I said in the original post, "I took one look at the platen and knew exactly what the problem was"

Some good guesses, keep trying.

Sincerely
Darryl Keil


 
^ Top
Don Stephan

Posts: 825

Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

User Profile
 
Subject : RE: Vacuum Veneer Puzzler
Posted : 2004-01-03 6:36 PM
Post #31171 - In reply to #31165

No doubt I will embarass myself ...
Air is not reaching the vacuum switch in sufficient quantity. In general, the possible causes would seem to be insufficient air flow to the end of the vacuum hose or insufficient air flow between the end of the air hose and the vacuum switch.

We have been told that the problem was within the platen, so possible problems within the vacuum hose can be eliminated.

In order for air within the bag to reach the vacuum hose it must be able to travel to the vacuum hose and enter it.

The grooves in the platen should have an effective cross section of about 1/8" wide by 1/8" deep. A photo of the platen would show the relative spacing of the grooves, but not if they had a working cross section of 1/8" x 1/8". The grooves could have been cut with a thinner saw blade, so that they were too narrow. The lacquer could have been water based, and caused the exposed interior of the MDF to swell, making the grooves too narrow and/or too shallow. And the lacquer could have collected in the grooves, reducing the working depth. Finally, if the grooves were rounded at the top (wider than 1/8" the bag could be drawn down into the grooves, reducing the effective cross section. It does not seem possible that the platen could be collapsing in the vacuum (which would reduce the working cross section of the grooves) unless it had an applied surface like cork or some such.

Assuming the air can move sufficiently within the grooves, it must be able to enter the vacuum hose without restriction. If the top diameter of the drilled hole was too wide, or the top of the hole was rounded over, the bag could be drawn down into the hole, partially blocking the ends of the grooves or partially blocking the end of the hose. Or if the end of the vacuum hose was too close to the surface of the platen (because the MDF was too thin or the bottom of the drilled hole was too wide and allowed the vacuum hose to slide too far into the platen) the end of the vacuum hose could be too close to the top surface of the platen, restricting air flow from the grooves into the vacuum hose.

No doubt the problem is something else entirely, and I have once again put foot in mouth.

Thanks for the challenge, and hope everyone posts a plethora of interesting and rewarding questions for our collective benefit.

Don


 
^ Top
Earl Kelly

 
Subject : RE: Vacuum Veneer Puzzler
Posted : 2004-01-03 4:36 PM
Post #31167 - In reply to #31157

OK, I'll take one more stab at this. When he finished the platen with the laquer the grooves were no longer sq. in the bottom, they were rounded causing the bag to suck down into the grooves and close off the flow.


 
^ Top
Jim Tullis

 
Subject : RE: Vacuum Veneer Puzzler
Posted : 2004-01-03 4:58 PM
Post #31168 - In reply to #31157

No one has said anything about the spacing of the 1/8" groove on the platten. It would seem to me that if the cuts are deep enough, all is well - - - but if the spacing is to far apart, the pump could cut off and recycle often, because all the space to evacte was not completed - - - all I know is that my system works great!!


 
^ Top
Carl Morrell

 
Subject : RE: Vacuum Veneer Puzzler
Posted : 2004-01-03 5:42 PM
Post #31169 - In reply to #31157

A desperate shot in the dark:

1) The edges of the platen were not rounded over?

2) What about the bottom? Was the platen flat?



 
^ Top
Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

User Profile
 
Subject : RE: Vacuum Veneer Puzzler
Posted : 2004-01-03 6:07 PM
Post #31170 - In reply to #31169

Earl, Jim, Carl

Although the platen was well laquered it wasnt enough to round off or fill up the grooves at all.

The grooves were cut in both directions at 10" on center which is fine.

The platen was slightly rounded over and the MDF was nice and flat. It wouldnt have mattered if it wasnt rounded over or flat though.

Keep on trying. If no one gets it by this coming Wednesday I'll give out a hint or two.

Sincerely
Darryl Keil


 
^ Top
Earl Kelly

 
Subject : RE: Vacuum Veneer Puzzler
Posted : 2004-01-04 9:56 AM
Post #31172 - In reply to #31170

I've tried the not so obvious things and I assume the grid work went to the edges of the platen. So now I'll try the obvious, soon as you see it items. Either there is a piece of slag(plastic) in the platen nipple, shutting off the flow or, the customer inadvertently covered or filled the nipple hole to prevent finish from entering and forgot to remove it. I guess we'll find out later this week, hopefully, if someone solves this.




 
^ Top
Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

User Profile
 
Subject : RE: Vacuum Veneer Puzzler
Posted : 2004-01-04 10:24 PM
Post #31173 - In reply to #31172

Don, Earl,

There was absolutely nothing wrong with the grooves, exit hole, or the platen sleeve and no obstructions in them. All of that was done correctly.

Keep the guesses coming.

Sincerely
Darryl Keil


 
^ Top
Roger S. Barga

 
Subject : RE: Vacuum Veneer Puzzler
Posted : 2004-01-05 2:13 AM
Post #31174 - In reply to #31173

Was the barbed platen sleeve trimmed properly? I can imagine that if the sleeve was too long that it might pull the bag close enough to form a seel over the exit hole.

Roger


 
^ Top
Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

User Profile
 
Subject : RE: Vacuum Veneer Puzzler
Posted : 2004-01-05 10:11 PM
Post #31175 - In reply to #31174

Roger,

Nope, platen sleeve was trimmed properly.

As I said before,some tips on Wednesday. What I forgot to add is the answer will be revealed on Sunday if no one gets it before then.

Sincerely
Darryl Keil


 
^ Top
Adam E

 
Subject : RE: Vacuum Veneer Puzzler
Posted : 2004-01-05 11:13 PM
Post #31176 - In reply to #31175

Although in post #31173 you state that the grooves, exit hole and platen sleeve were done correctly, let me split hairs: was the exit hole not intersected by the grooves?

Adam E


 
^ Top
Mike Palmer

 
Subject : RE: Vacuum Veneer Puzzler
Posted : 2004-01-05 11:17 PM
Post #31177 - In reply to #31175

I am going to guess and say the MDF was not completely sealed or was a type that is more porous. The cycling was do to air being released from the platten. I have seen similiar things occur using melamine coated particle board.


 
^ Top
Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

User Profile
 
Subject : RE: Vacuum Veneer Puzzler
Posted : 2004-01-06 5:16 PM
Post #31180 - In reply to #31177

We have a winner!!!

Although not described quite accurately, the sentence in Mike Palmer's post that says, "The cycling was do to air being released from the platen" is true. It is not so much that the MDF wasn’t sealed enough it's more that it was sealed too much. All MDF is quite porous as well as particle board.

The explanation goes like this. When I opened up the box with his platen in it, I saw that it was very thoroughly lacquered, too thoroughly. In and of itself that is not so bad. The real problem was that he had gone to extra effort making sure the grooves and edges of the platen were well lacquered. This effectively trapped air inside the platen, and there is a lot of air inside MDF that wants to get out when vacuum is drawn. Now lacquer cannot completely seal air in but it can slow the release of it considerably. Normally all the air would be drawn out of a MDF platen in the first cycle but with this platen being so thoroughly lacquered the air could only seep out which caused the switch to think the entire system was at full vacuum when in fact the platen was lagging way behind. That is why after 20 times or so of recycling the pump would stay off since all the air had finally been removed from the platen.

The reason I only understood what was going on when I actually saw the platen first hand was that the e-mailed picture, as clear as it was did not show the grooves all lacquered. Normally when customers lacquer their platen they don’t go to the extra trouble of making sure the sides and bottoms of all the grooves are completely coated. That’s why when he told me he had lacquered it, it didn’t send up a red flag. Even if a platen is spray coated it won’t get the sides of the grooves enough to restrict air removal from the core of MDF. Actually, all I had to do to get his platen to work reasonably well was to cut the two grooves that intersect the platen sleeve a little deeper.

So Roger, 1 gallon of Unibond 800 is yours. Do you want it in light, medium, or dark?

I hope the veneer puzzler has been fun as well as informative.

Sincerely
Darryl Keil



 
^ Top
Roger S Barga

 
Subject : RE: Vacuum Veneer Puzzler
Posted : 2004-01-12 3:20 AM
Post #31193 - In reply to #31157

Hi Daryl,

I enjoyed your puzzler, especially reading the responses it received and hope you will do it again. In your last message you said "So Roger, 1 gallon of Unibond 800 is yours". Alas Mike Palmer was the guy who nailed the answer, though I did take my fair share of "shots in the dark" . Hopefully you already caught this typo or Mike stepped up to claim his prize, but just in case I thought I'd set the record straight.

Cheers,
Roger



back
Navigate threads:
< Previous Thread :: Next Thread >

Legend      Notification  
Administrator
Forum Moderator
Registered User
Unregistered User
Toggle e-mail notification


Logo by MAZY
Running MegaBBS ASP Forum Software v1.5.14b public beta