Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-09-09 11:09 AM
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Carl F. Turshman

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Subject : Veneering a curved drawer front
Posted : 2007-10-26 8:35 PM
Post #34124
I want to veneer a curved drawer front using two layers of bending plywood like you described in the article " Strategies For Curved Work" in Fine Woodworking magazine of Nov-Dec, 1999. My problem is that the grain of the bending plywood has to be vertical and if I crossband two layers of veneer on both sides, the front of the drawer will have to have a vertical grain. What is the best way to get a horizontal grain direction on the front of the drawer for say curly maple?


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved drawer front
Posted : 2007-10-26 9:34 PM
Post #34125 - In reply to #34124
hi carl,


I think we met at a veneer seminar I was giving. are you saying that you need to make the bending plywood go in the opposite direction of you veneer?

craig



 
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Carl F. Turshman

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved drawer front
Posted : 2007-10-27 9:05 AM
Post #34127 - In reply to #34125
Hi Craig,

You are a hard man to find. I've been up in the Westcott area a few times and haven't been able to find you. In the Nov-Dec 1999 Fine Woodworking magazine, Daryl Keil wrote an article in which he made a curved surface using a sandwich of the center being a piece of horizontal grain veneer, then a piece of 3/8 bending plywood on each side and then on the front of the bending plywood, a piece of crossbanded veneer consisting of a horizontal piece attached to the bending plywood and ther second(outside layer) with the grain vertical. Daryl says that it is important that each layer of the sandwich should have the grain direction at 90 degrees with the next layer. The sandwich should also be symmetrical from the center. How can you use two sheets of 3/8 bending plywood and have the sandwich symmetrical, have all grains at right angles, and have the grain on the outside of the drawer horizontal?


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved drawer front
Posted : 2007-10-27 10:30 AM
Post #34128 - In reply to #34127
hi Carl,

I assume you bought the bending from woodland or syracuse forest products/ anyway, the problem your having is you have only one kind of bending ply. there are two kinds 4x8 and 8x4. one bends the short grain the other the long grain.

All I can advise is what
I've gleaned from your neighbor l&jg stickley. I do several hundred drawer parts a year for them.

The first is dont use bending plywood. depending on what you have invested I would use 1/8th veneer . Or at the very minimum 1/8 th bending poplar/birch plywood. more commonly called aircraft plywood.

but lets say you are already committed, if your face veneer is horizontal, you backer veneer should be vertical, and your face grain of the drawer should be horizontal, layer of veneer vertical in the middle and finally the inside of the drawer grain horizontal. the inside of the drawer veneer lay up should be indentical to the face veneer and you should have a symetrical lay up.

to simplify things look at your drawer front without the veneer, what ever way the grain is going is the way your final face veneer should be going. assuming you are two plying.

I think you have the wrong bending ply. your bending ply should bend the length of the drawer, or long grain, not short grain.

you final lay up should alway be an odd number as well


I'm sure DK will weigh in any time now.


 
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Carl F. Turshman

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved drawer front
Posted : 2007-10-27 2:47 PM
Post #34129 - In reply to #34128
Hi Craig,

Thanks for responding to my question again. I'm still confused. You say in your response that if the face veneer is to have a horizontal grain direction, then the backer veneer grain should be vertical and the bending plywood grain should be horizontal. I agree with this, but I can't see how you could make a serpentine drawer front with the bending plywood having a horizontal grain. It just doesn't bend that way. I can't see how a 4X8 sheet or an 8X4 sheet changes anything.

Carl


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved drawer front
Posted : 2007-10-27 6:38 PM
Post #34130 - In reply to #34129
hi Carl,

lets take a 8 foot column 24 inches in diameter as an example. if you use 4 x 8 bending ply you will need two sheets to complete the wrap, having a large amount of waste

if you use a 8 x 4 you can wrap the column with one sheet because it does not bend in the 4 foot direction.

you will notice that your bending plywood only bends in one direction, you need the sister bending plywood that bends in the opposite direction. There made differently.


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved drawer front
Posted : 2007-10-27 6:59 PM
Post #34131 - In reply to #34129
hi carl,
i'm back again.

back to the column . lets say you have two circular rings, you now lay out your ribs to go around the whole circle, add the top ring and now you have a column form. if you use 4 x 8 bending ply you will start your wrap on a rib and end at the the joint. you know have to add another sheet on top of that one to finish the 8 foot column. you now have three joints to contend with.

with 8 x 4 bending plywood the sheet is standing straight up which covers the whole form length. start on a rib , wrap around the form until you reach the joint. you now only have one joint to contend with.

i know this has nothing to due with your drawer but you see what i mean by the different bending properties?

when bending plywood hit the market it only bent one way, as it gained popularity the manufacturers made the sister companion. same with bendable mdf. it was first produced only scored in the 4 foot direction, then it too gained popularity and was made with the scoring going in the 8 foot direction.


seeing that I have made serpentine drawers for stickley for the williamsburg line, you should go to the showroom at towne center and take a look at one. crotch mahogany with holly banding and holly lock escutheon.


 
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Don Stephan

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved drawer front
Posted : 2007-10-27 7:38 PM
Post #34132 - In reply to #34131
C.T.:

Now I'm a bit confused. Using your very helpful example of a 4x8 sheet of bending plywood wrapped into a cylinder 4' long with an 8' circumfrence (sp?), and an 8x4 sheet of bending ply wrapped into a cylinder 8' long with a 4' circumfrence, won't the grain of the surface of the ply be along the length of the cylinder in both cases? In other words, isn't the face grain running across the 4' width of the 4x8 bending ply and along the 8' length of the 8x4 bending ply?


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved drawer front
Posted : 2007-10-27 10:09 PM
Post #34133 - In reply to #34132
hi don,

no, column is 8 foot high with a diameter of 24 inches. the grain on the 4x8 runs the 4 foot direction, while the grain on the 8 foot sheet runs in the 8 foot direction. while the grain on bending plywood is some what no de-script
almost rotary cut to begin with.

in layman's terms, one bends the long way the other the short way. I know where your your goin' with this

now your confusin' me dammit


 
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Carl F. Turshman

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved drawer front
Posted : 2007-10-28 10:14 AM
Post #34134 - In reply to #34125
Hi Craig,

Thanks for replying again. I must be dense, because I can't seem to understand how ab 8X4 sheet or a 4X8 sheet would apply to a drawer front. Would you mind if I stopped at your shop maybe on Monday (tomorrow) if that is convenient. I would only stay a few minutes. Are you still off Westcott St? My cell number is 315-383-8263 if you have time to give me a ring.

Carl


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved drawer front
Posted : 2007-10-28 11:07 AM
Post #34135 - In reply to #34134
carl ,

check out this photo http://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gpcy6vu8.jpg


 
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Carl F. Turshman

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved drawer front
Posted : 2007-11-06 4:35 PM
Post #34170 - In reply to #34125
Hi Craig,

I think I have a good idea on how to make a sandwich for the curved drawer front, but I'm still setting up my vacuum pressing system which I purchased from Daryl three years ago. Would you mind giving me your phone number or telling me where you do your pressing so that I might get a few ideas on what works good for you as far as table size and construction goes.

Carl


 
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Link Van Cleave

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Subject : Drawers
Posted : 2007-10-29 12:17 PM
Post #34143 - In reply to #34124
I would use 1/8" ply. more glue lines less spring back. In any case you could also use a backer veneer to your finished veneer with the grain running horizontaly and then your final outside veneer with the grain running verticaly. Do the same on the back.
As far as 4x8 vs. 8x4 you are right. Doesn't make any difference if you are using a small piece. You couldn't tell which type it came from. In a 8x4 the out side grain runs across the panel. In a 4x8 it runs the length of the panel. A 4x8 you can make a 8' tube, a 8x4 you can make a 4' tube. You still use it the way it bends in either case. On your drawer front the grain of the bending ply will be vertical in either case. Use a layer of veneer to cross band the ply and your final veneer.
Link


 
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Carl F. Turshman

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Subject : RE: Drawers
Posted : 2007-10-29 12:48 PM
Post #34144 - In reply to #34143
Hi Link,

Thanks for responding to my letter. Daryl Keil, in his video clains that it is risky to place a single layer of veneer over bending plywood. He suggests crossbanding using two layers of veneer at right angles. It is my understanding that for a curved drawer front, the outside layer of bending plywood must have a vertical grain. If this is true, then if you put your crossbanded veneer on the outside, then the layer of veneer nearest the bending plywood would have a horizontal grain and the face veneer that you see as you look at the drawer would have a vertical grain. What kind of a sandwich would you have to make in order to get a horizontal grain in the face veneer?
I was hoping that Daryl might weigh in on this one.

Carl


 
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Enrico Konig

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Subject : RE: Drawers
Posted : 2007-10-29 2:01 PM
Post #34145 - In reply to #34144
If you want the face veneer to be running horizontally in your example, then you'll need to do a 3-ply on each side of your bending ply. You're right about it not being advised to lay your face veneer directly over the rubber ply; the rubber ply is too roughly grained and over time this will telegraph through.
What I do, however, and I use rubber ply all the time and am exclusively doing curved work, is use 1/8" mdf over the rubber ply as the last layer, front and back, and then lay the face veneer directly onto this. And I've put the face veneer running vertically and horizontally with good results, as long as the veneer on the back is running the same direction. This has worked well for me for years now. This sandwich is laid up all at once. And 1/8" mdf has pretty good flex and will bend to quite a tight radius.


 
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Link Van Cleave

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Subject : Drawers
Posted : 2007-10-30 1:46 AM
Post #34146 - In reply to #34144
You are right about the grain in the bending plywood and I agree with Daryl about needing a crossbanding layer however I don't encounter that problem as I very rarely use thin veneer. I usually saw my own or buy thicker stuff 1/16" at least. I have never had a issue when using thicker veneer. With that in mind I don't think you would have a problem if you put a layer of say mahogany veneer over the bending ply crosswise (horizontaly) and then your face veneer, also horizontaly to get the orientation you wanted. Think about it, you have the outside layer of bending ply, a glue line, 1/42" thick layer of mahogany crossing the bending ply, another glue line and you face veneer. The mahogany is very stable and doesn't have much pull especially when only 1/42" thick. Of course do the exact same to the back of the drawer as the front.
Link


 
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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Drawers
Posted : 2007-10-30 9:08 PM
Post #34147 - In reply to #34144
Carl,

My rule is that only the backer veneer against the bending ply (and I'm referring to 3/8" bending ply here) needs to be at right angles. Its the coarseness of the bending ply that needs to be stabilized. Once this is accomplished another veneer in the same direction is acceptable, like what Link said.

If you use the 1/8" Italian bending poplar then I do not concern myself with grain direction of the veneer or use a backer veneer under the face veneer at all. The fineness of this material and the fact that its three ply in 1/8" make it very stable for veneering. Sometimes I will put a single sheet of 3/8" bending ply in the middle with one or two layers of 1/8" bending ply on each side to make a fine quality veneering substrate.

Sincerely
Darryl Keil


 
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Carl F. Turshman

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Subject : RE: Drawers
Posted : 2007-10-31 8:56 AM
Post #34148 - In reply to #34147
Hi Daryl,
I made a sandwich of 1 piece of veneer between two 3/8 oieces of bending luan and found that the surface inside the drawer face was smooth, but on the outsed the luan had vertical splits and was rough. I'll try the 1/8 bending poplar.
Carl


 
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Link Van Cleave

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Subject : Drawers
Posted : 2007-10-31 11:07 AM
Post #34150 - In reply to #34148
Carl, Your best bet would be to either use all 1/8" (many glue lines less spring back) or use the 3/8" in the middle with a even number front and back of the bending poplar. The glue lines and lams/skins far away from the central axis contribute the most to stiffness. As in a torsion box.
Also there are two kinds of 3/8", at least around here. One is really rough and redish in color. It bends easier than the other but isn't as consistant and doesn't fair a curve as well as the other which is a greenish color. The greenish stuff is much smoother, stronger and a better product. I have to go to another supplier to get it. My regular supplier doesn't know what I am talking about when I try to explain the difference. I will have to take a sample in. Any way put the 3/8" in the middle and if you have a project where you have to use it on the outside don't use the reddish rough stuff. Or at least you know there are different kinds out there.
Link
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