Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-02-12 2:48 PM
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CP Harrison

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Location: Afton, VA 22920

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Subject : Pear wood veneer wrinkles
Posted : 2015-04-11 9:34 AM
Post #37245

I'm trying to veneer pear wood to a number of panels of which the largest is 25x25 inch MDF substrate with Titebond III.
I'm cold pressing at 19.5. However, every press comes out wrinkled.
The supplier warned me that pear wood is hydroscopic—very prone to picking up moisture. I try and get the materials into the press ASAP, but still no success.
Should I try another glue? I've already tried Best Bond, but same thing.
Help would be appreciated.



 
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Aaron Paris

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Subject : RE: Pear wood veneer wrinkles
Posted : 2015-04-11 1:08 PM
Post #37246 - In reply to #37245

How long are you leaving them in the press? You could try misting the face with water after it is placed on the substrate before you cover it with the caul.


 
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CP Harrison

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Subject : RE: Pear wood veneer wrinkles
Posted : 2015-04-12 9:15 AM
Post #37247 - In reply to #37246

Thanks for your reply, Aaron.
I'm leaving in the press 2-3 hours.
I'm confused. Why would I want to add more water?


 
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Aaron Paris

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Subject : RE: Pear wood veneer wrinkles
Posted : 2015-04-12 12:13 PM
Post #37251 - In reply to #37247

I don't like it either but sometimes I have had to just to keep the veneers from curling up until I get the cauls placed. Are your wrinkles in one spot or across the entire panel?


 
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CP Harrison

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Subject : RE: Pear wood veneer wrinkles
Posted : 2015-04-13 8:49 AM
Post #37257 - In reply to #37251

Thank you Aaron,
The wrinkles are just in a couple of places.

I used less Titebond III glue the last time and it came out better. I'm now using a couple of large pieces of ¾" plywood underneath the piece to be veneered as "sponges" to soak up some the ambient moisture, then the ¾" MDF, then the glued veneer, then Kraft paper over, and lastly a (same-sized as veneer) piece of MDF over everything.

I try and get everything into the bag and start pressing ASAP. I'm cold pressing at 18.5-19 psi/hg for 2-3 hours minimum.




 
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Don Stephan

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Subject : RE: Pear wood veneer wrinkles
Posted : 2015-04-12 9:24 AM
Post #37248 - In reply to #37245

Can you describe your "press" and clamping pressure?


 
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CP Harrison

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Subject : RE: Pear wood veneer wrinkles
Posted : 2015-04-12 9:27 AM
Post #37250 - In reply to #37248

Pressure is at 19.5 millibars and it is a 4x8 plastic bag with a flat 4" box grid table of scored MDF.


 
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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Pear wood veneer wrinkles
Posted : 2015-04-12 7:04 PM
Post #37253 - In reply to #37250

Are you putting the glue on the veneer and, or substrate? Also, are you putting a hard caul between the veneer and bag?


 
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CP Harrison

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Subject : RE: Pear wood veneer wrinkles
Posted : 2015-04-13 8:57 AM
Post #37258 - In reply to #37253

Thanks Darryl,
I'm putting glue only on the MDF substate. (See note to Aaron above.) I'm just wondering if Titebond III is the problem. If I use too little I'm afraid I won't get good adhesion. My supplier mentioned that I only have to put on the thinnest layer of glue, just enough to easily see through it down to the substate.
I love challenges, but my deadline is fast approaching for this client. I've softened curly and burl veneers and had no problems, but this pear wood sucks up so much moisture so rapidly that I'm wondering if I shouldn't offer the client another choice.


 
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Aaron Paris

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Subject : RE: Pear wood veneer wrinkles
Posted : 2015-04-13 12:15 PM
Post #37259 - In reply to #37258

Darryl,Don. Do you think the veneer is wrinkling the moment it touches the glue? Then if there is not enough glue to slide around in that spot it just stays wrinkled because there is no glue to hold it down? CP. How are you applying the glue?


 
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CP Harrison

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Subject : RE: Pear wood veneer wrinkles
Posted : 2015-04-13 5:03 PM
Post #37261 - In reply to #37259

All,
I'm applying the glue with a mini 4" foam roller.

I've tried to find urea resin glue. All I can find is DAP Plastic Resin which still mixes with water. Is there another type?


 
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Aaron Paris

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Subject : RE: Pear wood veneer wrinkles
Posted : 2015-04-13 6:58 PM
Post #37263 - In reply to #37261

Unibond 800 from Vacupress.


 
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CP Harrison

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Subject : RE: Pear wood veneer wrinkles
Posted : 2015-04-19 12:43 PM
Post #37264 - In reply to #37263

I purchased the Unibond 800 as Aaron suggested. It does work, there are no wrinkles in the pear wood. That problem solved.

However, the first couple of times I used the Unibond my ambient temperature was hovering around 70*F and the veneers did not adhere. The instructions say no work should be done with the product under 70* and I thought I was within specs., but I guess not and decided to make sure.

I did several things. One, I trained heat lamps to warm up the substrate about 15 mins. to at least 80* using a thermometer; 2nd, I placed an electric blanket over the press (an old Sears and set it on high which brought the bag to about 80*); 3rd, I placed the mixed glue in a 90* bath of hot water after mixing and let it sit a couple of mins. I used a black foam roller and placed a thin coating on the surface of the substrate, waited a couple of minutes with the heat lamps on and then installed a second coat making sure the edges were well coated.

I know from the instructions that I had 15 mins. maximum to install in press. The time the glue was in the water bath, applied to the substrate, and the veneer installed in the press was about ten minutes. I pressed for 5 hrs. and the edges were tight. I pressed a second time for 3 hrs. and the edges were iffy. So now I plan to press for minimum for 5 hrs.

I want to thank you all for your help and advice. My client is anxious about the time but I explained the process and stated that I couldn't cut corners and still offer a guarantee. Many thanks again to Aaron, Don and Darryl.



 
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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Pear wood veneer wrinkles
Posted : 2015-04-21 10:42 AM
Post #37266 - In reply to #37264

Your efforts to warm things up is definitely to your advantage.

A couple of points. Dont warm up the glue itself, you run the risk of it catalizing prematurely. Keeping it cold extends your open work time considerably. As soon as the mixed glue is on the wood it will come up to that temperature almost immediately as it is spread out so thinly.

Second, make sure you do not test the glue line until 24hrs later. When you take it out of the press after 3-5 hrs it is only in the firm rubber stage and needs overnight, and sometimes longer to reach a good cure where you can properly test the bond strength.


 
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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Pear wood veneer wrinkles
Posted : 2015-04-13 1:55 PM
Post #37260 - In reply to #37258

Ok, well we know you're not putting glue on the veneer, thats good. Are you putting a hard caul between the veneer and the bag?

Pear is definitely problematic when it comes to wrinkling. Whether you use Titebond III or some other PVA glue its not going to make that much difference. To completely cure the wrinkling issue you need a different type of glue all together. Urea resin glue would solve that problem but you do have to mix two parts together and make sure your room temp is above 70 degrees. Aside from this working very fast spreading the glue and getting in the bag as quickly as possible is your best solution to the problem.


 
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CP Harrison

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Joined: 2015-04-08
Location: Afton, VA 22920

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Subject : RE: Pear wood veneer wrinkles
Posted : 2015-04-13 5:09 PM
Post #37262 - In reply to #37260

Thanks Darryl,
Are you talking about DAP Plastic Resin? Doesn't it mix with water?

I'm now using a couple of large pieces of ¾" plywood underneath the piece to be veneered as "sponges" to soak up some the ambient moisture, then the ¾" MDF, then the glued veneer, then Kraft paper over, and lastly a (same-sized as veneer) piece of MDF over everything.

I try and get everything into the bag and start pressing ASAP. I'm cold pressing at 18.5-19 psi/hg for 2-3 hours minimum.


 
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Don Stephan

Posts: 825

Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: Pear wood veneer wrinkles
Posted : 2015-04-19 4:35 PM
Post #37265 - In reply to #37262

Typically I will set the furnace thermostat to 70 deg the night before pressing, and first thing in the morning I'll turn on the elec blanket over the bag/platen/bottom caul to warm further. Even with everything set out the night before it will be 30-45 minutes before I get the pressing in the bag and vacuum drawn. So I leave the materials all room temp so curing doesn't start too soon.

Over the years I've kept track of how much adhesive per square foot is needed for different substrates, and always aim to have some left over. Long long and far far away, Darryl suggested pouring some of the excess into a tightly sealed zip lock sandwich bag (which I place in a 2nd tightly sealed bag) and placing above the vacuum bag under the heating pad. When the adhesive in this bag becomes rubbery the adhesive should be sufficiently cured that the vacuum can be turned off - but I'll usually wait an extra couple hours for a margin of safety.


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