Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-02-12 2:48 PM
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BigRob777

Posts: 142

Joined: 2008-05-26
Location: Newark, DE

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Subject : More Questions
Posted : 2008-07-13 1:59 PM
Post #34700
My first question is; How do I access the archives here? I'm decidedly not a techie, but I can usually work my way around a forum. Is there a button to click, to take me there?

My 2nd question is: What is plastic resin glue? Is that what gorilla glue is? I know that's a polyeurathane glue, or something like that.

3rd is; What type is unibond? How much is it? Can I pick it up when I get Darryl's catalog?

I know these are more than 3 questions, but they are 3 topics (well, actually two).

Thanks,
Rob


 
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Brian Gray

Posts: 339

Joined: 2004-01-21
Location: Sandusky, OH

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Subject : RE: More Questions
Posted : 2008-07-13 2:35 PM
Post #34701 - In reply to #34700
There are no archives here...the entire forum is here without archives.

You can just go to the upper right hand side of this page, and click "search forum".

As far as plastic resin vs urea resin goes...sometimes it's semantics.

When I think of plastic resin glue, I think of the Weldwood product that you add water to activate...see this link.

http://www.dap.com/media/product_photos/PlasticResin.aspx

It's a good glue. I interchange it with PVA's for furniture construction, but don't use it for veneer. Unibond is better, my opinion.

And no, Gorilla glue is not a plastic resin. Gorilla glue is a polyurethane glue. Personally, I don't reach for it much. It does have some applications within veneering, but it's rare. If you are bonding two dissimilar materials (metal to veneer), then polys are better than urea resins...there's also some other applications where polys are better.

Also, see this link...it is a thread that we had a while back that addresses the issue well.

http://www.vacupress.com/forum/thread-view.asp?threadid=16192&MessageID=31903#31903

Unibond is a urea resin formaldehyde.

You can buy it here on this website. Just give Darryl a call.

My personal take on adhesives....

I use PVA's and sometimes plastic resins for joinery, furniture, etc.

Unibond for veneer almost exclusively.

I use epoxy (West System preferred...don't bother with the 5 or 30 minute epoxies)for a lot applications, but always when I need gap-filling properties. Sometimes I use epoxy for veneer, but it bleeds easily.

Sometimes I use polys but very rarely. I really think that epoxy works better on dissimilar materials, and you don't have to bother with all the foaming. But like I said, epoxy will bleed worse than a poly.

Just my two cents...there's many ways to skin this cat.




 
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BigRob777

Posts: 142

Joined: 2008-05-26
Location: Newark, DE

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Subject : RE: More Questions
Posted : 2008-07-13 4:00 PM
Post #34702 - In reply to #34701
Awesome, thank you. There's so much I don't know. I'll look into your links tonight, when I have more time.
Rob


 
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Brian Gray

Posts: 339

Joined: 2004-01-21
Location: Sandusky, OH

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Subject : RE: More Questions
Posted : 2008-07-13 4:00 PM
Post #34703 - In reply to #34701
Here's another good thread on plastic resins...

http://www.vacupress.com/forum/thread-view.asp?threadid=16297&MessageID=32279#32279


 
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BigRob777

Posts: 142

Joined: 2008-05-26
Location: Newark, DE

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Subject : RE: More Questions
Posted : 2008-07-13 6:45 PM
Post #34704 - In reply to #34703
Ahhhh, most helpful. I have a gallon of yellow glue, then I bought a gallon of the same, with the pecan shells ground up in it. I'll now buy some unibond 800. What is the best glue for coffee tables (that's going to be my mainstay, I hope), which will probably get a lot of spills and glass sweat on it?
What temperature do I need to keep the room, for both glues (unibond and yellow glue)?
Your answers and links have really helped me to understand the subject much better. I don't want to have finish problems, either initially, or after the sale.

I looked up 3m and spray adhesive and didn't find anything, except for a mention of tape, in one of my earlier posts. I can't recall who recommended it for me to use, to do inlay, but is it better to use than tape, or does it hinder finish in any way? I bought a couple of types, which I can return, if it isn't adviseable to use in veneering.

Thanks,
Rob


 
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Brian Gray

Posts: 339

Joined: 2004-01-21
Location: Sandusky, OH

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Subject : RE: More Questions
Posted : 2008-07-13 9:08 PM
Post #34705 - In reply to #34704
//What is the best glue for coffee tables (that's going to be my mainstay, I hope), which will probably get a lot of spills and glass sweat on it?//

I assume that you mean the veneering part of the table, right? I would use Unibond.

//What temperature do I need to keep the room, for both glues (unibond and yellow glue)?//

Unibond needs to stay above 60-65 degrees. A lot of people buy electric blankets to place over their press when it's cold in the shop. Yellow glue doesn't matter that much, as long as it's not freezing.

//I looked up 3m and spray adhesive and didn't find anything, except for a mention of tape, in one of my earlier posts.//

I assume that you mean using spray adhesive for attaching veneer? No way....it will never work. Same goes with contact cement, although some people still do it. Long term, there's no comparison between contact cement or spray adhesive and Unibond, or another urea resin.





 
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BigRob777

Posts: 142

Joined: 2008-05-26
Location: Newark, DE

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Subject : RE: More Questions
Posted : 2008-07-13 9:26 PM
Post #34706 - In reply to #34705
Brian,
Thanks for your answers. As for the spray adhesive, it's just to hold the top piece of veneer to the bottom one, until I can cut both, to create the inlay. My first veneering project will have 3 fancy initials at the center of the top (it's a half/octagonal info center on wheels,which will double as a ticket sales counter). It's my first attempt at something that isn't square all around. The letters will be ebony veneer, set in curly cherry veneer. I've heard that the "stickum" holds the veneer still, so you can cut through both layers, then you peel them apart. I'm worried that tape will allow the top piece to slip, once I get towards the end of the cuts.

To clarify on the design, the footprint of the thing is 4' X 2' and it's 4' tall. The footprint is a little shy of half of a stop sign in shape.

Thanks,
Rob


 
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BigRob777

Posts: 142

Joined: 2008-05-26
Location: Newark, DE

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Subject : RE: More Questions
Posted : 2008-07-17 3:54 PM
Post #34716 - In reply to #34706
Does anyone use a spray on temporary glue, for inlay, or do you all use tape?
Thanks,
Rob


 
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BigRob777

Posts: 142

Joined: 2008-05-26
Location: Newark, DE

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Subject : RE: More Questions
Posted : 2008-07-18 10:41 AM
Post #34723 - In reply to #34716
Question for the day:
I just bought melamine for my platens and was wondering if you can do it in sections. My back is pretty messed up and I can't handle a large platen, so I wonder can I make them modular? I don't have a dedicated table for veneering, so I have to share a bench with assembly and finishing.

Note: Modular as in several 23.5" X 47.5" sections. I have two bags and one of these will fit the smaller one, and 4 of them will fill the larger one.

Also, I tried to find the depth of the grooves, which I know I read in a thread here, but the search didn't reveal the post. How far apart and how deep do I make the grooves? I've heard 2" apart and I think 4", by 1/8" deep, if my poor memory serves me right.

I still need to know; Can I use the 3M sticky spray for temporarily holding veneer pieces together, to make inlay cuts. Will it damage the veneer's ability to be finished properly?

Thanks so much. With your help, which is very much appreciated, I'm getting there.
Rob


 
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Brian Gray

Posts: 339

Joined: 2004-01-21
Location: Sandusky, OH

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Subject : RE: More Questions
Posted : 2008-07-18 1:45 PM
Post #34724 - In reply to #34723
I wouldn't try modular. I have three platens. One is 4x8, and is 4x4, and one is 2x2.

I think that if you try and make a platen that is tear-down-able, you are asking for it. The pressure of the press will have it's way with the seam, and this will telegraph to your project.

If you want your press to be more portable and save your back, maybe you can buy one of those garage hoists that you can attach to the ceiling? I've seen versions of those hoists that carry light loads, and by pulling a cord, you raise it up to the ceiling, out of the way. Or maybe something that folds up to the wall?

Depth of the grooves only need to allow air passage, so 1/4" or less should be fine, I would guess. I never put much thought into it. Make them deep enough to allow air passage, but not so deep to compromise the strength of the melamine.

My grooves are spaced 4", I think. I don't really know what the recommendation is.

As far as your 3M adhesive....I guess that I'm unsure of your question. do you want to join the edges of inlay pieces? If yes, than I don't think that it would work. Veneer tape is how I join pieces for marquetry.


 
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BigRob777

Posts: 142

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Location: Newark, DE

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Subject : RE: More Questions
Posted : 2008-07-18 2:42 PM
Post #34725 - In reply to #34724
Brian,
The spray is just to hold the two pieces together so that I can cut through them both together, so that the top cut-out will replace the bottom one. It's just a temporary tactic, to hold the pieces together, so that they don't slip, when I'm cutting out the pattern. I want to cut out VCF (letters) in ebony veneer and inlay it into some cherry veneer. That's the whole pattern. My concern is that the cut out letter will move, before I get it completely cut out. When I have cut through both veneers, I'll take the two layered V, or C, or F and separate the two layers. Then I'll tape the letter into place in the cherry.

I guess people usually tape a piece over the base veneer and cut through both layers, but unless you tape the whole thing, and maybe tape over the cut, before finishing, the veneer might have some movement, before both layers are completely cut through. I wanted to eliminate movement of the top veneer.

I have no idea where I heard this process, but it may (or may not) have been David Marks. I cut my teeth on Norm Abraams, then moved up to David.

Does anyone know where I can find one of those lift contraptions, that will lift a 4' X 8' platen and bag? I'm pretty tall, so I built my bench high and there's probably not enough room to lean it against the wall, nor could my back handle lifting it by hand. I fell 30' and landed on an I beam on my lower back. It fractured 5 vertibrae and now the discs are pretty bad too. I have to be careful how much I lift.

Thanks,
Rob


 
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Paul Kierstead

Posts: 39

Joined: 2008-01-24
Location: Ottawa, ON

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Subject : RE: More Questions
Posted : 2008-07-18 2:58 PM
Post #34726 - In reply to #34725
Marquetry guys do it all the time with just tape. If I follow you correctly, the way you are doing it will leave you with a gap equal to your saw kerf. When this is done that way, the saw is placed on an angle to make them both the correct size (well, there are several ways to skin that cat). I don't do marquetry at all, but I've watched the demo's and it can be tricky. You'll want to do several trial runs.


 
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Brian Gray

Posts: 339

Joined: 2004-01-21
Location: Sandusky, OH

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Subject : RE: More Questions
Posted : 2008-07-18 6:19 PM
Post #34728 - In reply to #34726
Here's the idea with the hoist.

http://www.amazon.com/Racor-HeavyLift-4-Foot-Cable-Lifted-PHL-1R/dp/B0009I8AO6/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1216419081&sr=1-3

I'm sure this could be altered to make it 4x8. Just two more feet on each side. Be sure to have some kind of I-Beam or torsion box setup, so that your platen won't sag when hanging.

I understand your spray adhesive question now.

Don't use veneer tape. Use the 3M blue tape.

Or if you are doing a real large setup (an entire stacked marquetry panel), 23 guage pin nails work. See Paul Schurch's videos for more instruction on this.

You could use spray adhesive, but it's real messy, and I think it would be more hassle than what it's worth.


 
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BigRob777

Posts: 142

Joined: 2008-05-26
Location: Newark, DE

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Subject : RE: More Questions
Posted : 2008-07-18 7:22 PM
Post #34730 - In reply to #34728
Thanks guys. I'll go check out that link you gave me Brian. I think I finally explained it right, as you both seem to understand, except that I wouldn't use a saw, I'd use a scalpel, to cut it. I guess I'll just put a piece of tape on the part that I cut, to hold it still, for the rest of the cut. I wish I could remember where I saw them use the stickum stuff.

Thanks again,
Rob


 
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Don Stephan

Posts: 825

Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: More Questions
Posted : 2008-07-18 8:30 PM
Post #34732 - In reply to #34723
Besides hoisting the veneer table to the ceiling, another option involves hinging one side of the table to a wall so that it can be folded up out of the wall when not in use. I would be concerned with the bag and platen sliding sideways as the table is folded up and let down, wearing holes in the bottom of the bag. Hoisting the entire kit-and-kaboodle to the ceiling would avoid this risk.

Think somewhere I read on time of a person who hinged one side of a frame system to a wall, but that would involve purchasing/making/modifying a frame system in place of your bag.


 
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BigRob777

Posts: 142

Joined: 2008-05-26
Location: Newark, DE

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Subject : RE: More Questions
Posted : 2008-07-18 9:00 PM
Post #34733 - In reply to #34732
I just ordered the hoist kit from Amazon, for a hundred fifty bucks, with free shipping (it weighs 70 pounds too). Sweet. I had originally wanted to try it, but didn't know I could buy one for so cheap. It looks nice and sturdy, but I'll have to rebuild it, to fit and undergird the 8' platen. I also have to buy a new sheet of melamine, as I cut two sections off this morning. I can use one for my small bag and have a spare, but I'm stuck with a 4x4 sheet. Storage is at a premium in my shops.

I'll also do the tape deal. I'm a beginner at veneering, so I won't be doing too much inlay, after this first project. I made the design, so that it would be easy to cut out, with all sweeping curved lines.

Thanks so much to all of you who have contributed, or will contribute to my veneering education. You are much appreciated.
Rob


 
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Don Stephan

Posts: 825

Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: More Questions
Posted : 2008-07-18 8:22 PM
Post #34731 - In reply to #34716
To hold two sheets of veneer together while cutting an inlay pattern I use 23 gauge pin nails. I would be very concerned about spray adhesive residue and how it might affect the eventual gluing of the veneer to the substrate. Sandwiching pieces of veneer for cutting out inlay and marquetry is very clearly demonstrated and explained in the 2nd Paul Schurch video. Also included is scroll sawing the pattern. I highly recommend this video as it will save you time and money very quickly.
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