Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-09-09 11:09 AM
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Roger Holmes

Posts: 5

Joined: 2008-06-13
Location: Lincoln NE

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Subject : "Green" glues
Posted : 2008-06-13 3:17 PM
Post #34617
I have a client who sells "green" products and wants me to do some veneering using glues that meet green specifications. I'm not exactly sure what this means, but it does eliminate urea formaldehydes like the Unibond 800 I rely on for most everything. I'd love to find a "green" glue with the same properties as Unibond 800--particularly long open time. I worked in England years ago and we used Cascamite, a milk-product derived glue that I think would fill the bill, but I don't know where to get it here... Any other suggestions very welcome. Thanks


 
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Scott

Posts: 31

Joined: 2006-08-23
Location: New Hampshire

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Subject : RE: "Green" glues
Posted : 2008-06-13 3:33 PM
Post #34618 - In reply to #34617
I believe that Unibond 800 can be tinted with transtint dyes. Try adding some bright green. That should do the trick.


 
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craig tufankjian

Posts: 308

Joined: 2004-02-01
Location: syracuse ny 13208

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Subject : RE: "Green" glues
Posted : 2008-06-13 4:24 PM
Post #34619 - In reply to #34618
green as in "eco-friendly".


 
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Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

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Subject : RE: "Green" glues
Posted : 2008-06-14 12:56 PM
Post #34623 - In reply to #34617
Roger,

I think I may know where you might get the Cascamite glue. I check on Monday and get back to you.

Darryl


 
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Roger Holmes

Posts: 5

Joined: 2008-06-13
Location: Lincoln NE

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Subject : RE: "Green" glues
Posted : 2008-06-16 5:45 PM
Post #34624 - In reply to #34623
Thanks!
R


 
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Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

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Subject : RE: "Green" glues
Posted : 2008-06-16 8:57 PM
Post #34625 - In reply to #34624
Roger,

So here's the scoop. Cascamite is actually a brand name for a powdered urea formaldehyde glue. The glue you are asking about is called a casein glue and is not used much anymore. One of the problems with this glue for veneering is its high water to solids ratio. Most urea's are around 60% solids where casein is around 25%. Not the best thing for veneer. It takes a long time to cure and is also quite expensive, probably because so little of it is made now. I'm hoping to have a sample sent to me to experiment with but it doesn't sound too promising.

Darryl




 
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craig tufankjian

Posts: 308

Joined: 2004-02-01
Location: syracuse ny 13208

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Subject : RE: "Green" glues
Posted : 2008-06-16 9:09 PM
Post #34626 - In reply to #34625
i have a company for that specific glue if needed. you can try national casein.com as well.
Attached file : 4978807_m.jpg (5KB - 94 downloads)



 
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Darryl Keil

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Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

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Subject : RE: "Green" glues
Posted : 2008-06-16 9:58 PM
Post #34627 - In reply to #34626
Craig,

Whats your opinion of this glue, do you use it for veneering?

Darryl


 
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craig tufankjian

Posts: 308

Joined: 2004-02-01
Location: syracuse ny 13208

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Subject : RE: "Green" glues
Posted : 2008-06-16 10:15 PM
Post #34628 - In reply to #34627
It seems like voodoo potion to me Darryl. mixed opinion. when it comes to veneer+glue my opinion is "why take chances". urea or pva for me. but this " GREEN" thing is sweeping the country.

I used it once and to be honest I can say I used it to any degree to recommend it. what about pre-mixed hide glue? is that considered green?

with all the organic this and green that you would think "veneer" would be in favor, but solid wood stills rules


 
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Roger Holmes

Posts: 5

Joined: 2008-06-13
Location: Lincoln NE

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Subject : RE: "Green" glues
Posted : 2008-06-17 1:43 PM
Post #34629 - In reply to #34628
Craig and Daryl,
Many thanks for your help and comments. I didn't realize Cascamite's composition. I should have thought of National Casein's glue--duh! Like Craig, I've fiddled with it a little and will now do some more serious testing, though, like Daryl, I suspect it will be too sloppy. I've corresponded with a veneer company guy who says they use a pva with 30 minute open time. I've asked what it is. I know Titebond makes "extended" versions of their glues, but their max open time is 15 min, and I wonder about that... Liquid hide glue might fill the bill, but I'm not sure what is added to keep if from setting up in the bottle and a glue with little water resistance is a dodgy proposition for much of my work. I appreciate your interest and info. I'll post any useful info I discover...
Best
R


 
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Paul Kierstead

Posts: 39

Joined: 2008-01-24
Location: Ottawa, ON

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Subject : RE: "Green" glues
Posted : 2008-06-20 12:27 AM
Post #34633 - In reply to #34629
I'm not sure what is added to keep if from setting up in the bottle


Urea. I think they often may be a little of this and that to alter other properties. My favorite is Old Brown Glue, but in quantity I think Franklin might make large containers if you call them direct.


 
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Jeff Patrick


Joined: 2004-04-15
Location: Bainbridge Island, WA

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Subject : RE: "Green" glues
Posted : 2008-06-19 2:40 PM
Post #34631 - In reply to #34628
I'd like to limit my personal exposure to formaldehyde and am thus interested in using the liquid hide glue. So far, however, I have only found it in small quantities and the extrapolated price per gallon is way high. Do you, or anyone else, have a source for liquid hide glue in gallon quantities and isn't outrageously expensive?


 
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craig tufankjian

Posts: 308

Joined: 2004-02-01
Location: syracuse ny 13208

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Subject : RE: "Green" glues
Posted : 2008-06-19 7:33 PM
Post #34632 - In reply to #34631
Jeff,

you may have to resort to buying a glue pot and granulated pearl hide glue if you are looking to save money. i've never seen anything larger than a pint bottle .


 
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Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

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Subject : RE: "Green" glues
Posted : 2008-06-20 10:40 AM
Post #34634 - In reply to #34631
Jeff,

Here's a source for a good quality liquid hide glue from a company in San Diego called "Antique Refinishers". They call their liquid hide glue "Old Brown Glue". Phone #619-298-0864

It will work in the vacuum press but you will need draw out the extra moisture a few times with newspaper. Wait about four hours then change the paper a couple more times once an hour. Leave the panel in overnight. Depending on the amount of bleed through you may want fiberglass screen between the veneer and newspaper so you don't glue the paper to the veneer.

Darryl


 
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Jeff Patrick


Joined: 2004-04-15
Location: Bainbridge Island, WA

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Subject : RE: "Green" glues
Posted : 2008-06-20 1:26 PM
Post #34635 - In reply to #34634
Darryl,Thank you for this info. Using pva, that also has moisture, the newspaper isn't necessary because the glue will tack well enough to hold the veneer tight once removed from the press. Overnight drying is necessary for complete bond though. I supposed that the hide glue would behave similarly. I hadn't thought of having to draw out the moisture from the hide glue. Sounds like a bit of bother but I'll give it a try.Here's a thought: You should develop a vacuum bag made of gore-tex. You know, that breathable cloth made for hiking and the like. Then the moisture can escape but the air can't get in. Oh, wait.... it keeps out the rain, not the air. Shucks, thought I was on to something.


 
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jason Straw

Posts: 2

Joined: 2008-06-30
Location: gainesville, fl./fort bragg, ca.

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Subject : RE: "Green" glues
Posted : 2008-06-30 3:41 AM
Post #34653 - In reply to #34617
check out titebond site..
http://www.TitebondGREENchoice.com/GC_products.htm
i think to be considered green you want a very low voc or none at all and NO formaldehyde ( i think).
the brown glue also has no voc's and i think more solids than white glue. hmmm.
i just used hide glue on a chair i built during a workshop and i really liked it... it's slippery.. long open time.. and it allows the work to be repairable, unibond most certainly does not allow the work to be repaired....
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