Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-09-09 11:09 AM
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frank thomas

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Subject : flat panels done at production volume
Posted : 2008-01-05 2:51 AM
Post #34229
Which would be more practical for pressing 2 sided panels in a production shop setting: a large bag with multiple panels or multiple smaller bags running off of the same pump through a valve manifold.
Can smaller panels be stacked over larger ones with a thin caul between to avoid pressing outlines from the smaller panel?
Experienced replies would be appreciated, thanks.



 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: flat panels done at production volume
Posted : 2008-01-05 10:18 AM
Post #34230 - In reply to #34229
Hi frank,

With the amount of panels you have and using urea resin I dont see where you have a choice but to do multiples. I've done as many as 8 4x8 panels at one time in my bag so it is possible. and i was using pva glue with reduced bleed thru so i didn't need anything between the panels.

If you are going to use urea resin I would use a vertical grade laminate between each lay up to avoid the panels from sticking together. take two pieces and blue tape them together so you have the slick side of the laminate out. you could even use poly between each lay up.

I wouldn't suggest putting smaller panels over larger ones. recipe for trouble. are all 60 to 70 panels different sizes?


craig


 
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frank thomas

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Subject : RE: flat panels done at production volume
Posted : 2008-01-08 1:22 PM
Post #34241 - In reply to #34230
Thanks for the advice, I was considering 'Better bond's' cold press veneer glue as an alternative. Is that the pva glue you were referring to?
The panels are different sizes because they have to be sized and edged with solid wood first, then routed after veneering. I'll keep in mind stack only same sizes direct and to use thick cauls between different sizes.
Thanks again
Frank



 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: flat panels done at production volume
Posted : 2008-01-09 3:02 PM
Post #34247 - In reply to #34241
hi frank,
the glue i am using comes from veneersystems.com brown in color


 
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Don Stephan

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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: flat panels done at production volume
Posted : 2008-01-05 7:25 PM
Post #34232 - In reply to #34229
Not a production woodworker but I can offer a bit of input on stacking.

It does take additional time to "bring in" the sides of the bag to conform to the stepped shape. And I'd think you'd want a 3/4" thick caul between the last large panel and the first small one so that uniform pressure is applied to the top large panel.

Where the bag transitions from the vertical side of the smaller stack to the horizontal surface of the top larger panel, the bag usually makes a curve, and there is a void behind the bag in that corner. This void will stretch the bag, so a stronger material is needed. Also, that void translates to reduced pressure on the caul over the larger panel all along that void; a thin caul might allow glue to puddle under the void.

Just my two cents.


 
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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: flat panels done at production volume
Posted : 2008-01-06 8:21 PM
Post #34233 - In reply to #34229
Frank,

The advantage of multiple bags is that you get your panels under pressure sooner since you are not doing as many at once. No matter what glue you use the sooner you're under pressure the better. It also make the process more relaxed with less stress because you are not rushing to get so many panels into one bag.

Sincerely
Darryl Keil


 
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frank thomas

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Subject : RE: flat panels done at production volume
Posted : 2008-01-09 6:14 PM
Post #34248 - In reply to #34233
Thanks Darryl,
I'll be deciding on how many and what sized bags and pump soon. We don't do a lot of production veneering on a regular basis so I'm not sure if we need to go with a 10 cfm pump and a lot of bags. ( this job wil be about 70 two sided door panels) and we could do them over the course of a week or two. Any input on this would be appreciated.
Also can you tell me which glue would be best in the following situation?
Our door panels will be mdf core with a solid wood edge then veneered over.Then routed with a partial 1/4" round over. This leaves an elongated backer and glue line exposed, so a glue that is thin and doesn't darken the backer seems best. At the same time we want a good bond over the seam between the mdf and wood edge.
I'd rather not have to mix glue if possible, especially with formalahyde in it. What do you think of the premixed glue from Better Bond made for cold pressing in three shades.
Thanks,
Frank


 
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Earl

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Location: Pensacola FL

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Subject : RE: flat panels done at production volume
Posted : 2008-01-09 6:37 PM
Post #34249 - In reply to #34248
Frank,

I'm really surprised Darryl did not recommend the Flip top press versus bags. This would really speed up production especially on flat work. If you can afford it get the 10CFM pump. You didn't really state the frequency of your veneer work, if your only doing this large run once, or very seldom, of course a smaller cheaper setup will do the job.

Earl


 
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frank thomas

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Subject : RE: flat panels done at production volume
Posted : 2008-01-09 8:28 PM
Post #34250 - In reply to #34249
Thanks for the input Earl,
I doubt this style door will catch on at our shop. It is uncommon in our area so we may be using the bags mostly for curved casework and jambs, etc.
I'm still looking for anyone on this forum that has used the Better Bond premixed cold press glue. Anyone?


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: flat panels done at production volume
Posted : 2008-01-09 9:07 PM
Post #34251 - In reply to #34250
hi frank,
its customary for veneer suppliers to use the same glue as other companies
supply, just re-label it with a different "snappy" name, like "better bond". this is the exact same glue sold at veneersystems.com .

if you buy enough volume you can have your own lables put on the gallons. better bond is nothing more than a reduced bleed thru pva glue. its called mpa 1 veneer and its $17.68 a gallon

stick with the pro's like uni-bond, tite bond, national casein (www.nationalcasein.com)

craig


 
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frank thomas

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Subject : RE: flat panels done at production volume
Posted : 2008-01-10 12:16 AM
Post #34254 - In reply to #34251
Thanks Craig,
I can't find what mpa 1 veneer glue is.
Unibond 800 is the only glue listed on vacupress.com and as a urea resin 2 part mix. I'm trying to find a premixed non formaldahyde glue.
Franklin Tite bond has a cold press veneer, but I've not seen consistently good reviews on it.
I have not seen anything on the casien glue co., but e-mailed them to find out which type is made for this application.
Has anyone tried the Franklin cold press venner or their type 2 extended set glue that is also rated for heat press and/ or RF?


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: flat panels done at production volume
Posted : 2008-01-10 12:57 AM
Post #34255 - In reply to #34254
hi frank,

go to www.veneersystems.com for mpa 1 veneer glue


 
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Earl

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Location: Pensacola FL

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Subject : RE: flat panels done at production volume
Posted : 2008-01-10 5:43 AM
Post #34256 - In reply to #34254
Frank,

Here's another source for adhesives. CustomPak

http://www.cpadhesives.com/Home_Page.php

Earl


 
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Tom Hirsz

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Location: Toronto, Ont. CANADA

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Subject : RE: flat panels done at production volume
Posted : 2008-01-11 9:44 PM
Post #34259 - In reply to #34256
Build or buy yourself a flip-top press and save yourself a lot of aggrevation. Bags are a pain to work with. More prone to leaks too. But pressing your own panels is something you hope to be doing every few months or so to make the investment worthwhile.
Better yet, get them pressed by someone else who has the right equipment and do something else while you're waiting. My plywood supplier takes these type of custom pressings all the time as does my veneer supplier.



 
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dale kern

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Joined: 2008-01-07
Location: manhattan, il

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Subject : RE: flat panels done at production volume
Posted : 2008-01-13 9:46 PM
Post #34260 - In reply to #34233
I understand Darryl's point of getting the panels under pressure quickly but is it an option to glue up a panel or two and get it in the bag under pressure then prepare the next panel or two and open up the bag to "add to the stack". Is this going to cause any problems so long as the glue (unibond) doesn't start to set up?

Thanks for the help,

Dale
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