Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-09-09 11:09 AM
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Bruce Eaton

Posts: 6

Joined: 2005-11-18

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Subject : Shagreen
Posted : 2005-11-18 8:20 PM
Post #32564
I'm building an art deco style desk and plan to apply shagreen to the surface. Any recommendations for adhesive?


 
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Brian Gray

Posts: 339

Joined: 2004-01-21
Location: Sandusky, OH

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Subject : RE: Shagreen
Posted : 2005-11-20 11:14 AM
Post #32566 - In reply to #32564
Shagreen is a type of leather, right?

I did a lap desk a while back which had a leather top on it.

When I did that, I used spray adhesive.

In hindsight, I'm not sure that I'd use spray adhesive if I were doing the same project again. That being said, the leather hasn't shown any sign of peeling up, or glue failure after about six years. But today, I'd still feel better using something else.

I think that if I would do it again, I would use unibond or epoxy. But I would use a light coat. You don't want the adhevise to soak completely through the leather and make the show surface hard...keep the show side supple.

I think that I would do some tests with scrap, and try different adhevises. PVA, Unibond, epoxy, whatever...

Also...I'm not sure that I'd use a vacuum press, unless I set it to a pretty low setting. I'd be afraid that the press would pull the adhesive and cause it to soak through, as mentioned above. Also, I'd be afraid that if you had it in the vacuum press, you couldn't see if you bled some adhevise around an edge where you might not want any.

Maybe just some bricks on top....then the pressure wouldn't be too great, and you could see if the adhesive bleeds to an edge where you don't want it to...

I think that the real key here is some scrap tests...my 2 cents...

Let us know how it works...I will probably do something like this in the future, and I'd like to hear some feedback.



 
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Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

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Subject : RE: Shagreen
Posted : 2005-11-20 12:44 PM
Post #32567 - In reply to #32564
Bruce,

For all those unfamiliar with the term "Shagreen", it is a leather made from shark skin and sometimes stingray.

As far as gluing it goes, what Brian said is what I would say "tests, tests, tests" I always prefer a rigid bond so that would be epoxy, urea resin, or polyurethane. Of these three epoxy and polyurethane are high saturators so I would lean towards a urea resin glue like Unibond 800.

Shagreen may glue fine with a PVA glue. I cant really say since I haven't worked with it. A few simple tests will tell you what you need to know. When you find out make sure to post again and tell us all what you discovered.

Sincerely
Darryl Keil


 
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Schwim in Michigan

 
Subject : RE: Shagreen
Posted : 2005-12-31 11:43 AM
Post #32679 - In reply to #32567
I'm planning to glue a leather sheet to the top of some baltic birch to place in a frame for a pull-out writing board.

In Andy Rae's book "The Complete Illustrated Guide to Furniture and Cabinet Construction" published by Taunton, copyright 2001, they describe the procedure using 9 parts white glue to one part water after misting the back of the leather with water.

Basically, the frame is applied 1/16 proud of the field, then a line is scribed with a utility knife along the joint. The back of the leather is sprayed lightly with water and allowed to soak (rolled up) for about 10 minutes. Then a full strength glue line is brushed around the field edge and the diluted glue is rolled evenly in the center of the field.

The leather is applied by hand by pushing down with palms from the center working outwards, and is then burnished into the scribed knife line and finally trimed with the knife.

When the moisture from the glue and water dries, the leather shrinks slightly, pulling it tight and removing any remaining wrinkles. The dilute glue leaves the leather supple in the center, and the leather may be tooled (decoratively stamped) around the edge in the area of the full-strength glue

My question is then, will I need to "balance" the opposite side of the ply to prevent warping? The frame will be pretty thin, so may not suffice to keep things flat. I'm assuming because there was no mention of concern for warping I should be OK with the thin frame that my desigh calls for.

Schwim



 
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Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

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Subject : RE: Shagreen
Posted : 2005-12-31 6:06 PM
Post #32680 - In reply to #32679
Schwim,

You say the frame is thin, how thin? Also, how is this frame held in place to the carcase? How big is the panel with the leather in it?

Sincerely
Darryl Keil


 
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Schwim

 
Subject : RE: Shagreen
Posted : 2006-01-02 7:28 AM
Post #32681 - In reply to #32680
Darryl,

The entire frame and panel will be about 14 by 18 inches. I'll use 3/4 baltic birch and a M/T frame that is buiscuited to the panel. The frame will be mahogany around 3/4 inches thick by about 3/4 or so wide. This will slide into a U-shaped chanel (doubler/kicker/runner) above a drawer in a set of nightstands I'm building.

Thanks,
Schwim


 
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Schwim

 
Subject : RE: Shagreen
Posted : 2006-01-02 12:59 PM
Post #32683 - In reply to #32681
I just cut the frame, and it's actually 7/8 thick by 1 1/8 wide. I'm going with it and will keep you posted of the progress. I'm waiting for some leather stamping tool I just ordered to emboss around the edges, so I won't glue down the leather till I have them (and have a finish on the frame). The leather is supposed to be tooled when the glue is wet.

Schwim


 
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craig

 
Subject : RE: Shagreen
Posted : 2006-01-02 11:31 AM
Post #32682 - In reply to #32564
CAN YOU TELL US WHERE YOU GOT THE SHAGREEN? THANKS


 
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Schwim

 
Subject : RE: Shagreen
Posted : 2006-01-02 1:13 PM
Post #32684 - In reply to #32682
Here's a source for shagreen. Never shopped there, no affiliation.

http://www.galartintl.com/shagreen.htm

Schwim


 
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Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

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Subject : RE: Shagreen
Posted : 2006-01-02 9:08 PM
Post #32685 - In reply to #32684
Schwim,

Im going to guess you will be fine. Your panel and frame are fairly thick and the overall size is not all that big.

You'll know in a day or two after applying the leather if everything is fine.

Sincerely
Darryl Keil


 
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Bruce Eaton

Posts: 6

Joined: 2005-11-18

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Subject : RE: Shagreen
Posted : 2006-03-08 7:42 PM
Post #32883 - In reply to #32682
Just checking back. Still haven't glued it down yet. Finally have the desk made and working on finishing. I purchased the shagreen from a place in England http://www.leathermerchants.com/. They were helpful and I received the skins relatively quickly. I believe the skins may have come from this company in Thailand http://www.mplthailand.com/ where it may be cheaper to order from them direct...

I also discovered that you cannot import these skins into the US (at least if you intend to resell in any form) without a federal fish and wildlife permit - $100. As soon as I filed the paperwork for the permit with a faxed copy of the check, the skins were released from customs...

I'm planning on doing a couple tests. I also spoke with bookbinders regarding the gluing of leather. It seems that a wheat paste may be best for gluing down leather or baize with perhaps a bead of yellow glue around the edge to keep it from creeping too much. White glue and traditional hide glue were also suggested. Looking at a few websites for organ making, it sounds like fish glue is often used on leather parts. I'm considering using this as it tacks quickly, but takes a while to set up, and is revesible with water so that if the stuff ever needs to be replaced, the yellow or white glue won't be left behind to deal with.

The shagreen is much tougher than leather and was difficult to cut. I ended up shooting with a block plane to get clean edges. The thickness also varies considerably and it doesn't appear that it would be easy to thickness the skin like they thickness leather for bookbindings etc. I think I will try to scrape to the variying depths to get it as flat as possible.


 
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Warren Snow

Posts: 7

Joined: 2004-11-21
Location: Marshall, VA

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Subject : RE: Shagreen
Posted : 2006-03-19 9:02 AM
Post #32906 - In reply to #32883
Bruce,
I worked with Shagreen on a project several years ago and found it to be a very difficult material. I also searched in vain for hours on the internet for information on how to work with shagreen, and found nothing. It sound like you've already been through some of the same issues I dealt with, so I offer the following for anyone considering shagreen.
I don't claim to be an expert, and I'm sure people with more experience have better methods, but here are a few things I learned using shagreen:

1. The tiny shell-like bubbles that cover a shagreen surface are very difficult to cut straight and cleanly. I resorted to cutting oversized pieces with the bandsaw, then gluing the shagreen to a ground (MDF, ply...), and cutting a clean edge to the shagreen with a flush trim bit in a laminate trimmer. If your framing, or other considerations, prevent this, then consider using very thin baltic plywood (1/8" as your ground to make a thin shagreened panel, and then using that thin panel as a component with your other elements.

2. For adhesive, I've used wallpaper paste for leathers successfully.

3. I found a source for shagreen in NYC. Unfortunately I can't remember the name of the company. Buying from them did not require the permits you mentioned.

4. Ruhlman used shagreen in several of his famous art deco pieces, and is a good source is you want to see what shagreen can look like on pieces.


 
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Bruce Eaton

Posts: 6

Joined: 2005-11-18

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Subject : RE: Shagreen
Posted : 2006-03-21 10:24 PM
Post #32915 - In reply to #32906
Thanks for the suggestions. I have another piece of Shagreen I was thinking about using for another project. Attaching to another panel is a great idea! Thanks.


 
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Gary H Phillips

Posts: 46

Joined: 2007-05-06
Location: Seekonk, MA

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Subject : RE: Shagreen
Posted : 2007-05-06 8:58 AM
Post #33809 - In reply to #32564
Greetings,

I've been reading the forum and when I saw this question, I had to join and ad my 2cents. I build pipe organ components for a living. We glue all kinds of things together, including leather. You want to glue leather (shagreen) to a flat surface. I would recommend one glue, and that is high quality hot (hide) glue. It's very easy to work with and extremely strong...and, if you need to replace the leather at some point, it's renewable, meaning it strips easy with warm water.


Cheers

Gary
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