Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-09-09 11:09 AM
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Steven Kenzer

Posts: 57

Joined: 2008-07-16
Location: Putney, VT

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Subject : Tape/Stitcher
Posted : 2009-05-31 11:15 AM
Post #35454
Can someone explain to me the advantages/disadvantages of solid tape over perforated tape? Does solid have a bit more "pull"? Is perforated made more for under veneer applications? I've never really understood the difference. I've always leaned towards using perforated on top, thinking there was less removal involved but not sure that makes much sense.

Also....I'm curious to hear how people, who have purchased the Veneer Stitcher VacuPress sells, like this tool. I'm considering one but haven't read much about these. Any info would be appreciated....thanks everyone.


 
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Jeff Patrick


Joined: 2004-04-15
Location: Bainbridge Island, WA

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Subject : RE: Tape/Stitcher
Posted : 2009-05-31 4:16 PM
Post #35455 - In reply to #35454
The three hole tape can be used on the bottom of the veneer as long as you keep the center hole right over the seam. The two hole tape is for use on top like the plain tape. I've used all three and have abandoned the three hole as being very awkward to place correctly and I've had telegraphing. The two hole on top simply doesn't offer any advantage that I can tell. Removal of the plain tape is ease with sufficient wetting. Scrubbing off the glue residue is difficult sometimes but always possible.

I haven't used a stitcher and am also contemplating one. If anyone has a few photos of their use and other experience, I would be eager to see/hear.


 
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Enrico Konig

Posts: 74

Joined: 2006-01-06
Location: Vancouver, BC

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Subject : RE: Tape/Stitcher
Posted : 2009-05-31 4:59 PM
Post #35456 - In reply to #35455
I bought a stitcher several years ago and use it pretty much exclusively. One of the main reasons was that I was having problems with the residue left by veneer tape, particularly (but not only) when I was using dye. Then I discovered just how much faster the stitcher is. So even though I think it is a very overpriced tool for what you get, it didn't take long for it to pay for itself. Guess that depend on how much veneering you do.

There are a few problems with it. One is that the thread leaves a very noticeable indentation, which can be troublesome to wet/iron/sand out. Particularly with the scary thinness of commercially available veneers. Second is that it just doesn't have the holding power of tape if you're trying to squeeze a troublesome seam together. Flat veneers are no problem however. The last thing is more of an annoyance, in that if you're using the stitcher for a prolonged period, the wheel that presses the thread onto the veneer surface heats up and the thread starts sticking to it instead. Lastly (that I can think of right now) is that the thread leaves it's own residue that can show up with dye or even clearcoat. I now just wipe every seam with lacquer thinner as this dissolves the residue.

But even with all those problems, there's no way I'd switch back to tape. Partly because I still do a lot of dying. Mostly because it's just so much faster, and I do a lot of veneering.


 
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Steven Kenzer

Posts: 57

Joined: 2008-07-16
Location: Putney, VT

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Subject : RE: Tape/Stitcher
Posted : 2009-06-01 5:57 AM
Post #35457 - In reply to #35456
Thanks for the info, Jeff and Enrico. What causes me a little pause, in regards to the stitcher, is Enrico's words about a "noticeable indentation". That seems pretty disconcerting but evidently Enrico has found ways to deal with this. Enrico, I'm curious..does this situation arise every time you press using the stitcher to hold seems together? I too have wondered why these are so expensive but...the speed of the task is very appealing. BTW..Enrico...your work is really terrific...beautiful design, meticulous craftsmanship..not a bad combination to have. Do you mind if I ask....what's your glue of choice? Just curious. Thanks again.


 
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Enrico Konig

Posts: 74

Joined: 2006-01-06
Location: Vancouver, BC

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Subject : RE: Tape/Stitcher
Posted : 2009-06-01 11:03 AM
Post #35458 - In reply to #35457
Yes, the cauls press the thread into the veneer. Quite often use a double stitch to hold a seam together, and then wherever the thread crosses a thread is an even more noticeable indentation. I haven't experimented with using a thin layer of something more forgiving between the veneer and the hard caul, maybe that would alleviate the problem. Something along the lines of what people are using to compensate for different veneer thicknesses in a marquetry panel, for example. To tell the truth though, don't really want to be buying and constantly cutting up another layer of caul material. Can often moisten and iron out the indentation anyhow.
Thanks for the kind words on my work. I use urea resin pretty much exclusively, although one from a different manufacturer (Unibond isn't available here in Canada and shipping is just too expensive). I can't wait for an environmentally friendly alternative to be available though (more and more clients ask! - how's that soy-based alternative coming along Darryl?). I'm doing a lot of multi-layer laminations so no way to have enough time with PVAs - also springback an issue with curved forms.



 
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Brad

Posts: 87

Joined: 2008-04-22

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Subject : RE: Tape/Stitcher
Posted : 2009-06-01 12:01 PM
Post #35459 - In reply to #35458
Enrico, where do you get your Urea from? I am a bit north of you and have been ordering Unibond from Veneer Systems. They have a shipping branch located in Ontario.

Steven, there are some interesting discussions about the veneer sticher on the Woodweb. Not many as positive as Enrico's, but then again, many of those are large production guys that can afford the industrial machines.

Brad


 
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Enrico Konig

Posts: 74

Joined: 2006-01-06
Location: Vancouver, BC

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Subject : RE: Tape/Stitcher
Posted : 2009-06-01 12:35 PM
Post #35460 - In reply to #35459
I use the Casco-Resin made by Borden and distributed here in Vancouver by Coast Fiber Tek (in Burnaby). I used to use Unibond catalyst with the Casco resin, as I liked the way it mixed and also the availability of different tints, but after a few problems I just started using the Borden catalyst. It doesn't mix as well but it has a much longer open time, which works great for me as I do a lot of multi-layer glue-ups.


 
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Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

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Subject : RE: Tape/Stitcher
Posted : 2009-06-01 7:50 PM
Post #35461 - In reply to #35458
One way to overcome the indentation issue is to use a sheet of 1/16" natural gum rubber between the veneer and the top caul. You don't need to have different size sheets as the extra just lays on the platen. I also agree that its best on generally flat veneer. Really ornery veneer needs the extra pull of veneer tape. My experience is that I use it on about 90 percent of the veneer and tape on the difficult 10 percent.

As Enrico said the real standout benefit is the speed, I find 50 percent of the veneer process is applying and removing the veneer tape as well as dealing with the gum residue. I find the stitcher brings it down to about 10 percent.

Darryl Keil


 
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emanuel leimanis

Posts: 8

Joined: 2003-07-07
Location: Richmond, B.C., Canada

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Subject : RE: Tape/Stitcher
Posted : 2009-06-01 8:16 PM
Post #35462 - In reply to #35461
I don't have a stitcher and I have used one in a previous shop. They pressed the panels with the stitching down in the glue. They used TB Cold Press.

Is it necessary to keep the stitching up on the face? If you could put the stitching down, would it not save a lot of time?

Love to hear what the thinking is from those who use a stitcher.

Emanuel Leimanis


 
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craig tufankjian

Posts: 308

Joined: 2004-02-01
Location: syracuse ny 13208

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Subject : RE: Tape/Stitcher
Posted : 2009-06-02 3:21 PM
Post #35464 - In reply to #35462
The shop I used to work for always put the thread glue side down.

Craig


 
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Enrico Konig

Posts: 74

Joined: 2006-01-06
Location: Vancouver, BC

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Subject : RE: Tape/Stitcher
Posted : 2009-06-02 3:49 PM
Post #35465 - In reply to #35464
The problem is the thread eventually telegraphing through. I asked the same of Darryl when I first got mine, for obvious reasons, and he warned me of this. I did a few tests (bottomside of drawer bottoms) and, some 18 months later when I checked, could indeed make out the thread outline, however lightly. Makes sense, when I see the kind of imprint it makes on the top side. So I only put thread side into the glue on non-showing parts (which can and does save a considerable amount of time on any given piece)

It seems most of the problems talked about on the Woodweb forum that I could find concerning stitchers - the lack of holding power being a top one - are happening in hot presses. Which again makes sense, considering it is hot melt glue that is the adhesive. I haven't had this problem as I'm cold pressing. I have learned the hard way, however, to make sure the veneer is flatter than I would with tape, as I've had some seams open up when I've tried to press veneer that was too wavy.

I am going to definitely try some gum rubber sheet. Any suggestions on best places to source this?


 
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emanuel leimanis

Posts: 8

Joined: 2003-07-07
Location: Richmond, B.C., Canada

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Subject : RE: Tape/Stitcher
Posted : 2009-06-02 4:11 PM
Post #35466 - In reply to #35465
Enrico,

I picked up some Gum Rubber sheets, as suggested by Daryl, from ACR Group. They are at the south foot of No. 5 Road Richmond. I had to buy a minimum quantity, from which I have 2 full 4' x8' sheets and probably the same amount still left over. If you would like some, drop me a line. My shop is off No. 5 Rd and Steveston.


Emanuel leimanis


 
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Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

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Subject : RE: Tape/Stitcher
Posted : 2009-06-02 8:55 PM
Post #35468 - In reply to #35462
The conventional wisdom is that you put the stitch into the glue when using a hot press as the heat reliquifies the hot melt adhesive in the thread so there would not be any possibility of telegraphing due to high spots in the stitching process.

Although the thread is flattened out when stitching it doesn't guarantee flatness. This is why I am not comfortable with putting the stitch into the glue when cold pressing. I think the risk of ghosting is too great. I will however, put the veneer on the back side, stitch into the glue. On the inside of a door or underside of a table, no one is going to notice a faint ghosting of the stitch.

The real issue here, which none of us can do much about, is the absurd thinness of veneer these days, all in the name of profit. Back when veneer was 1/28", which it was for a fairly long time, this conversation wouldn't even be happening. The stitch would be going on the glue side, no problem.

Darryl Keil
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