Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-09-09 11:09 AM
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Philip Abbett

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Joined: 2007-09-21
Location: Jasper, IN

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Subject : applying to thin or uneven edges
Posted : 2007-09-21 11:07 AM
Post #34056
I am starting my first "project" after playing around a bit. I am doing a round table top (48" for my parents. I am using Santos rosewood and two plying it with mahog before pressing to baltic birch ply. My two questions are: Since I am gluing 2 3/4 inch baltic birch plys together for a total of 1 1/2" how do I apply the veneer to the edges? When I press it does not seem like the bag wants to touch the edges and thus not create engough pressure to adhere the veneer. 2 same question about the table skirt. What is the best way to build my skirt? Should I use bend ply and laminate or use several layers of plywood glued together and how do you get the veneer to hold? Sorry for the simple ?? Any advice is appreciated.


 
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Don Stephan

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Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: applying to thin or uneven edges
Posted : 2007-09-23 10:30 AM
Post #34058 - In reply to #34056
My first suggestion would be to watch the two videos by Darryl Keil and available, among other places, from vacupress.com

Even baltic birch can have voids, and any exposed voids will clearly telegraph through if you vacuum press edge veneer. You could use another product such as MDF and its variations instead of plywood. You could two-ply your edging before pressing to minimize any telegraphing through. Filling any voids would still be necessary, and the edge would be thicker after the table is veneered (unless the edge were applied before the top).

Traditional ending ply is very flexible but doesn't usually form a perfectly smooth curve. 1/8" plywood usually will yield a smoother curve, but can be harder to find than traditional bending ply.

Your questions are right on target, but all have more than one possible solution, each with its challenges and drawbacks.

My sincere suggestion is to start with a rectangular table top as a first project and watch the two videos (not necesarily in that order).


 
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craig tufankjian

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Subject : RE: applying to thin or uneven edges
Posted : 2007-09-23 12:28 PM
Post #34060 - In reply to #34056
phillip,

i do some 300 tale tops a year so i can weigh in here. are you grain matching the edge? i usually do the edges first. drill a screw hole dead center of your table top, you can fill the hole later with bondo. take the top and screw it to the side of your work bench, not flat but to the side of your work bench so you can spin the top. divide your top into three or four sections, measure the length of each section then cut your veneer strips 2 inches bigger. at each layout mark where you divided the top put blue tape on the other side of the line. apply glue top the edge of the top between each section, use a 2 inch ratchet band clamp to press the edge veneer put a double layer of laminate on top of the veneer before the band clamp to act as a caul. when dry take off the band clamp, the veneer should be stuck right to where you applied the blue tape with the extra 1 inch flapping in the breeze, flush up the top and bottom overhang about two inches along the edge. take off the blue tape and square up the joint in preparation for the next section of veneer spin the top to line up the next section , make one square edge on your next veneer strip and tape it to the one you just glued on. keep repeating until your at you last piece. the key is the two inch band clamp. you will be surprised at how much pressure they apply. and yes i agree with don you should two ply if you insist on using plywood. a single layer of veneer on the edge will telegraph.


if the top is a radial match, layout the radial on the top first so you know where to stop the veneer so it will line up with the sections on top. if your grain matching, do the edge after you veneer the top. use a dowel instead of screwing thru the top .

i dont like veneering edges after the top is done because the edge of the veneer is prone to being chipped from thing being dragged over the edge. i usually inlay an 3/16ths solid wood edge if i have to go that route. ebony would be a nice combo with santos rosewood.

craig


 
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Don Stephan

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Subject : RE: applying to thin or uneven edges
Posted : 2007-09-23 1:49 PM
Post #34061 - In reply to #34060
Nice tips Craig, thanks for sharing with us some "production" strategies that are great for everyone.


 
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Jeff Patrick


Joined: 2004-04-15
Location: Bainbridge Island, WA

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Subject : RE: applying to thin or uneven edges
Posted : 2007-09-24 1:36 PM
Post #34063 - In reply to #34061
Another way is to hammer veneer the edge prior to doing the top veneer. I do like the band clamp idea though.

Jeff


 
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Philip Abbett

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Subject : RE: applying to thin or uneven edges
Posted : 2007-09-24 1:45 PM
Post #34064 - In reply to #34061
Band clamp was what I was thinking but I wanted expert verfication. I watched Darrel's video and thought it was clear, concise and very understandable even for a beginner like myself. To the MDF, I have read some people do not use the MDF because it doesn't allow the glue to "bite". In Darrel's vid. he uses MDF to do a small table top, wasn't sure if it was kosher for lager tops. Pie match on the top, and probably orient the edges perpendicualrly to the top. I'm not going to worry about rolling the grain over the edges, the top alone is going to cause me many headaches. Thanks for the replies.


 
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Don Stephan

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Subject : RE: applying to thin or uneven edges
Posted : 2007-09-24 7:11 PM
Post #34065 - In reply to #34064
I've used MDF for large tops and will continue to do so although I've used baltic birch ply when the customer insisted (and the finish was not going to be a high gloss). I'm more comfortable with a good quality MDF substrate under the tremendous force of a vacuum press. If the substrate was limited to 3/4" thick and had to have good screw holding capability, I'd probably prefer baltic birch ply, otherwise MDF.

As a general practice I (hand) scuff sand the surface of the substrate with 80 grit 4x24 sanding belt on a tight fitting piece of scrap before glueup just to make sure the surface is free of any little bumps and to help adhesion, whether the substrate is plywood or MDF.

Just my two cents.


 
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Philip Abbett

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Location: Jasper, IN

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Subject : RE: applying to thin or uneven edges
Posted : 2007-09-25 8:43 AM
Post #34067 - In reply to #34065
Advice taken. Check my plan and see if I should change course. 2 ply all the veneer I need for project. Rough cut 2-3/4 sheets of MDF and glue together. Cut to final dimension and apply edge veneer. Apply backer to bottom of table and veneer to top. Edge trim and allow to dry for a day. Make up skirt and veneer it, install with pocket screws. Finish (don't even ask what I'm gonna do there). Finish legs and install. Hope mom and dad like so I can get back into the will.


 
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Don Stephan

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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: applying to thin or uneven edges
Posted : 2007-09-26 7:11 PM
Post #34068 - In reply to #34067
I wouldn't bother making two ply of my face veneers unless necessary. I'd also make a trial run of getting everything assembled, into the vacuum bag, and the vacuum drawn to make sure I can physically handle the size and weight fast enough to allow time to apply the glue and secure the face veneer in place.

I'd also make a trial run of the edge treatment, and especially dressing it and the surface veneer flush. One project involved wenge veneer, and it chipped back behind the edge very easily. Finally I trimmed within about 1/16" and carefully sanded flush with a large sanding block.

Personal preference, but I'd like to have the apron and legs made before veneering the top so I know how everything is going to go together and resolve any issues before committing a large amount of expensive veneer.

Finally, I would want to make a test run on perhaps 2 sq ft of the actual veneer to make sure any bleed thru is not a contrasting color, does not stain the veneer, and complete the entire finishing schedule to confirm that will give the desired results, again before committing a large amount of expensive veneer.

Good luck!


 
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Philip Abbett

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Joined: 2007-09-21
Location: Jasper, IN

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Subject : RE: applying to thin or uneven edges
Posted : 2007-10-12 3:08 PM
Post #34088 - In reply to #34068
This table project is starting to drive me nuts. I two plied my santos to some mahog and used this process. Cut the santos to approximate length, basically remove defects on ends, and apply glue to the back of the veneer, put veneer on backer and put 2 pieces into press. I'm using PVA that I got from a veneering site, don't remember exactly what brand. I press for the recommended 45 minutes between 2 3/4" plattens. When I pulled the sheets out which were only about 22" long and 9" wide the glue had started to set up and turn transparent. When the sheets came out they were perfectly flat. I put them between 2 more plattens and clamped them together to avoid the potato chip syndrome. I did 20 sheets total over a period of 3 days repeating the same procedure. 2 nights ago we went to cut our veneer into 22.5 degree wedges and found about 6 of our sheets have some nasty wrinkles in them on the santos side. The sheet is flat not curled up but basically ruined because the wrinkles extend 8-10" through the sheets. Why did some come out good but about a third junked on me? This is really becomming depressing for a first timer.


 
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craig tufankjian

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Joined: 2004-02-01
Location: syracuse ny 13208

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Subject : RE: applying to thin or uneven edges
Posted : 2007-10-12 3:50 PM
Post #34089 - In reply to #34088
philip,
are you sittin' down? ok...maybe you better.

it sounds like the glue wasn't cured yet. the good news is you used pva, which you can reactivate. you got an iron? take a spray bottle and lightly mist the buckled area, make sure your iron is set to wool setting, using alot of pressure iron the wrinkles out. dont camp out with the iron keep it moving over the buckled area. the water mist you sprayed on there will generate steam into the glue to reactivate it and flatten out the wrinkles.the heat of course will cure the glue. we call this "the poor mans hot press"


ok.... now here's the bad news. its traditional to cut all your pieces for the radial match first, tape the pieces together , then two ply the whole lay-up at one time. instead of individual pieces. i hope you remembered to flip every other sheet or your top will be slip matched. gonna end up looking like a pinwheel. two plying serves a couple of purposes, first, the movement of the substrate is transfered to the secondary veneer and not the face veneer, but more importantly is that is locks in all your veneer joints making them less likely to fail

well... it looks like you'll be making a three ply now. hang in there, your almost home.


 
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Philip Abbett

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Joined: 2007-09-21
Location: Jasper, IN

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Subject : RE: applying to thin or uneven edges
Posted : 2007-10-12 4:59 PM
Post #34090 - In reply to #34089
I didn't think of the iron thing, will try that this weekend. No, I did not flip my sheets either but I laid it out so it looks OK and no real noticible pattern difference.
When you do the 2 ply I was told the grain on the backer needs to be perpendicular to the face. If that is true then if you lay up and tape the top together then there is no way to keep the back perpendicualr? I am assuming then the backer grain direction is not so critical then? Trying to picture this, I have my veneer cut and taped at this point do I glue the backer to it or do I glue the backer on when the whole mess is applied to the substrate? This method would have made my life a lot easier. Thank you for the advice.
Phil


 
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craig tufankjian

Posts: 308

Joined: 2004-02-01
Location: syracuse ny 13208

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Subject : RE: applying to thin or uneven edges
Posted : 2007-10-12 5:54 PM
Post #34091 - In reply to #34090
phil,

actually only one piece of your backer veneer will line up with your face veneer.

you should roll out your glue onto the backer veneer then apply your lay up to that. then put this into you bag. now with everything two plied your ready for the substrate


then with both lay ups ready (face and back) apply glue to your substrate, do the back first, apply the back veneer then do the face veneer , apply your caul and slide into the bag .

when you roll out the glue for your two plys, make sure you roll with the grain and not against it.this will keep the veneer from flapping around. also make sure that the joints in the backer are offset from the joints in the face veneer.

as for the iron technique , you may want to use this in place of the band clamps we spoke of earlier. spread glue on your edges, no more than a foot at a time, lay your veneer on the edge, apply the iron pressing down at the same time. you will see the pva glue start to bubble out from the edges. when it stops bubbling the glue is set, advance down the edge further. also make sure there is not water in the iron. one of those cheap proctor silex irons is the best. this technique is also great for applying veneer to edges of all shapes. the trick is , even though the glue has set because of the heat, let it set up just like you would if you used clamps. do rush to trim the edges, set it aside and let it fully cure. if you see burn marks on your veneer tweak the setting down a little say to cotton. you may need to do this on lighter colored veneers such as birdseye maple or maple.

i think you will be alright with a two ply back
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