Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-09-09 11:09 AM
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BigRob777

Posts: 142

Joined: 2008-05-26
Location: Newark, DE

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Subject : How Closely must Backer Veneer Match?
Posted : 2009-06-03 10:32 PM
Post #35472
How closely should backer veneer match what's showing? I want to do a lot of work with waterfall bubinga. I bought some birch and red oak backer and some curly anigre stitched up veneer as well. Will this work? When I do a coffee table, or panel, I'll use at least the same type of wood, as you can see the bottom of a table and the inside of a panel, when it's open. Is there a list of materials that are good enough for backing other woods? I have a few burls, but mostly use figured woods, such as waterfall bubinga, curly maple, quilted and curly sapele, curly cherry and curly anigre. I also have some veneers such as bloodwood, ebony (for detail work, when I get there) and curly maple for trim, such as a table skirt. I plan to use solid wood for legs and banding, and baltic birch for substrate.

Any advice is appreciated.
Thanks,
Rob


 
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Brian Gray

Posts: 339

Joined: 2004-01-21
Location: Sandusky, OH

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Subject : RE: How Closely must Backer Veneer Match?
Posted : 2009-06-04 1:09 AM
Post #35473 - In reply to #35472
The species doesn't really matter. Thickness matters.


 
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BigRob777

Posts: 142

Joined: 2008-05-26
Location: Newark, DE

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Subject : RE: How Closely must Backer Veneer Match?
Posted : 2009-06-04 2:48 AM
Post #35474 - In reply to #35473
Awesome. I thought I had heard otherwise, but that's great news. I think I need to review Darryl's DVDs, before I dive into veneering (finally).
Rob


 
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Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

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Subject : RE: How Closely must Backer Veneer Match?
Posted : 2009-06-04 6:03 PM
Post #35477 - In reply to #35472
Rob,

The other thing to think about is, how will I be using this panel. If its a side panel in a cabinet or a fairly small table top with good sub structure underneath to fasten with I'm not as concerned with the backer veneer as when it is something like an inset door. The door has nothing you are going to fasten it to so any warpage will show a lot more. Also, as the panel gets bigger any warpage will show a lot more than on something like a drawer front.

Just a few thoughts

Darryl Keil


 
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BigRob777

Posts: 142

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Location: Newark, DE

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Subject : RE: How Closely must Backer Veneer Match?
Posted : 2009-06-04 6:47 PM
Post #35478 - In reply to #35477
Darryl,
Thanks. I was thinking about that and about whether the back will show, such as a door panel, or even a coffee table bottom. Are some woods better for backers, than others? I realize that burl is a whole other ball of wax. I would imagine that it pulls less than straight grained wood, or even figured (curly and such) woods. I bought some plain red oak and some birch (I think) for backing. I also have some 36" wide stitched curly anigre' that's not that great looking. I got that for backing the nicer stuff of the same kind.
Rob


 
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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: How Closely must Backer Veneer Match?
Posted : 2009-06-04 8:05 PM
Post #35479 - In reply to #35478
Rob,

Visually speaking, I usually put the same veneer on the back of doors, although if the front is figured I put a plain cut on the back. If what species the backer is doesn't matter I like backer grade mahogany or poplar. Mainly because those veneers come in wide widths and are easy to work with.

Darryl Keil


 
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BigRob777

Posts: 142

Joined: 2008-05-26
Location: Newark, DE

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Subject : RE: How Closely must Backer Veneer Match?
Posted : 2009-06-04 9:10 PM
Post #35480 - In reply to #35479
What's backer grade? That's a new on on me.
Rob


 
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Jeff Patrick


Joined: 2004-04-15
Location: Bainbridge Island, WA

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Subject : RE: How Closely must Backer Veneer Match?
Posted : 2009-06-06 2:15 PM
Post #35481 - In reply to #35480
Fairly recently I have done two different cabinets with large, inset, euro-hinged doors. One set of doors are about 24x60 inches and the other about 16x60 inches. On both sets I veneered the backs with yellow cedar and the fronts with either american sycamore and european chestnut. None of the doors has shown the slightest notion of warpage from the veneer. I am sure to press both sides at once on these large panels.

Something else I've become cautious to do in regards to door pairs. If possible I will cut them out of the same sheet of sheet goods using the same orientation that they will be used in the cabinet. This way, any warpage that will naturally occur with the substrate will complement each door. I think the worst thing one could do is to invert faces of ones substrate for a pair of doors. The sheet must be accurately marked while cutting out the blanks.

And Rob... I just have to ask. Why do you think its important to use show veneer on the bottom of a coffee table. How can that surface be normally seen? Personally, if I'm on the floor looking up at the bottom of any table, I'm probably in no condition to be aware of what it looks like.


 
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BigRob777

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Subject : RE: How Closely must Backer Veneer Match?
Posted : 2009-06-06 3:04 PM
Post #35482 - In reply to #35481
Jeff,
That's a good one. I wouldn't use show veneer, but I would use the same type of wood. If I'm going to spend a bundle on a waterfall bubinga coffee table, I'd want the bottom to at least be the same color. Then again, I'm new to this game. I used to lay on the ground a lot, for my back and my wife lays on the floor cuddling our loveable pooch. We have guests that sit on the floor a lot too, but they wouldn't be able to see the bottom of a coffee table. Then again, those are two of the main projects that I've got on my agenda, an armoire and several coffee tables.
Rob


 
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Don Stephan

Posts: 825

Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: How Closely must Backer Veneer Match?
Posted : 2009-06-07 10:43 AM
Post #35484 - In reply to #35482
My understanding of "backer grade mahogany" is that it's simply very wide flat cut mahogany. Prominent cathedrals and arches make it less attractive, especially when pieced together inartistically, but the width minimizes extra time spent seaming veneer for a surface that won't show.

Backer grade is generally less expensive per sq ft, but the cost savings in veneer itself isn't that significant. I'm more inclined today to use on the back something that is similar in appearance to the show surface, say a flat cut version of the same species without arches and cathedrals, that may cost a little more in materials in time. I'd be less concerned though about the appearance of the underside of a coffee table than a dining table, which is more likely to be seen over the years than the underside of the coffee table. Just my two cents.

(By the by, arches and cathedrals are the swooping figures found in flat cut veneer and even boards as the surface nears a diameter of the log. Especially noticeable on exterior plywood and boards from near the outside of a log. Arches and cathedrals can be attractive when used thoughtfully in both veneer and boards, but often a visual distraction in my opinion.)


 
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BigRob777

Posts: 142

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Location: Newark, DE

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Subject : RE: How Closely must Backer Veneer Match?
Posted : 2009-06-07 11:14 AM
Post #35485 - In reply to #35484
Yeah, my wife loves it (cathedral etc.) in red oak. This might irk some folks, but I think of red oak as the poor man's wood. I built my first furniture from red oak plywood and now I'm just really into figured (especially waterfall, curly and quilted) and nicely colored woods (like bloodwood, tulipwood and kingwood). I've never seen tulipwood in veneer. That would be gorgeous.
Rob


 
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Gary McD

Posts: 6

Joined: 2009-06-08
Location: Jacksonville, FL

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Subject : RE: How Closely must Backer Veneer Match?
Posted : 2009-06-08 8:18 PM
Post #35486 - In reply to #35477
Another design consideration I have encountered regarding backer veneers is the stoutness of the panel and whether the back will even be visable. I am certainly not an expert of long standing, but have done quite a bit of veneering for about 5 years and sometimes use no backer veneer at all. Many may cringe at that, but I (as you may) use thick tops on tables, buffets, etc. which are composed of 2 or 3 thicknesses of 3/4 plywood, or a bombproof torsion box. My logic says a .7mm veneer isn't going to bend my panel that could hold a ton of bricks. I realize that not all furniture is this type, but when it is, I have had zero deflection on anything I have built yet. I also believe using a non-waterbased glue, such as the Unibond800 or urethanes or epoxies avoids a big part of the problem at the root. Water will swell the veneer and then it will shrink later on, warping the panel. I'd be interested in Darryl's take on this as well.
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