Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-09-09 11:09 AM
11 replies, 4756 viewings
 
back
Navigate threads:
< Previous Thread :: Next Thread >
 
^ Top
Jake Davis

Posts: 5

Joined: 2007-02-14
Location: NJ

User Profile 
Subject : Veneering Speaker Boxes
Posted : 2007-02-14 4:58 PM
Post #33599
I will be veneering some speaker boxes. I'm very new to veneering (read: Haven't done it yet), and I was wondering what type of adhesive would be the best for my application. I do not plan on using any kind of pressing system besides clamps because I'm unsure as to whether I will be veneering ever again. I'm planning on polyurethaneing afterwards to get a glossy and long lasting finish.
I am currently looking at different burl-type veneers on www.veneersupplies.com.
Any direction on this subject would be highly appreciated!

Thanks,
Jake


 
^ Top
Don Stephan

Posts: 825

Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Veneering Speaker Boxes
Posted : 2007-02-15 7:34 PM
Post #33605 - In reply to #33599
Lots of people use PVA types of adhesive but I don't like the extra moisture they add to the veneer (I will sometimes use PVA to glue a 3/4" veneer strip to something like a table edge, but not to a flat surface). Lots of people also use contact cement but there can be serious problems down the road with adhesion failure (several different possible causes) and I don't like the risk.

Urea formaldehyde two part glues I feel are the best adhesive for veneer. They can be purchased in 1/2 gallon quantities for smaller jobs. Practice several times before undertaking a speaker box and consider some strong deep throat clamps if internal support can't be provided during veneering. I consider boxes much more difficult to veneer well than flat surfaces, so starting with this project will be challenging.


 
^ Top
Anton Gerner

Posts: 45

Joined: 2003-09-04
Location: Melbourne, Australia

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Veneering Speaker Boxes
Posted : 2007-02-16 5:22 PM
Post #33608 - In reply to #33605
You could always consider veneering your speaker boxes in component form.
Thats how I made mine. Once the flat panels are pressed I cut miters in the panel saw, then biscuit jointed and glued them up. Flat panels are much easier to work with and you can put a backer veneer on also.


 
^ Top
Jake Davis

Posts: 5

Joined: 2007-02-14
Location: NJ

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Veneering Speaker Boxes
Posted : 2007-02-17 1:23 PM
Post #33612 - In reply to #33605
Don: I've built and carpeted speaker boxes before, but this will be the first time for veneering. Can the urea formaldehyde glues be used with just clamps and no vacuum? I've also read that it's beneficial to primer MDF before attempting to glue it so it doesn't absorb the glue. Would this be a concern in this situation or should I not worry about it?

Anton: Thanks for the advice on veneering the panels seperately. I think that'll be a huge help.

Anyone: Is there a specific clamping method I should use? For example, using a piece of wood with multiple clamps evenly spaced to hold the veneer down to the glue and substrate as evenly as possible? Also, I noticed that the veneer I wanted to use would be approximately 1/42" thick. Is this going to show any edge or will it be neglible?

I really appreciate everyone's input!


 
^ Top
Brian Gray

Posts: 339

Joined: 2004-01-21
Location: Sandusky, OH

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Veneering Speaker Boxes
Posted : 2007-02-17 4:39 PM
Post #33615 - In reply to #33612
//I've also read that it's beneficial to primer MDF before attempting to glue it so it doesn't absorb the glue. Would this be a concern in this situation or should I not worry about it?//

When it comes to that priming thing, I think that you are confusing painting MDF with veneering it. You definitely want the glue to penetrate so it grabs the MDF. Sealing it before glueing would be counter-productive, and probably would lead to failure.

As far as a strategy for non-vacuum clamping, I would say that it depends on your panel size...why don't you give us some dimensions, and the advise will probably depend on those specifics.

You mention the veneer thickness possibly showing on the edges...
Take a look here..
http://www.briangray.net/projectdetail.cfm?ProjectID=26

This is a speaker set that I did a little while back. I highly recommend that you follow my lead and just add strips over the exposed edges. It would be very tough to not treat the edge with something and expect the veneer to never chip over time. It certainly can be done, but you could be asking for it as a beginner...my 2 cents.

bg


 
^ Top
Brian Gray

Posts: 339

Joined: 2004-01-21
Location: Sandusky, OH

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Veneering Speaker Boxes
Posted : 2007-02-17 5:10 PM
Post #33617 - In reply to #33615
Oh...and in regards to adhesive...

Most people here will give a big thumbs up to urea formaldahydes, and I will as well. I use Unibond 800.

My success rate with PVA's is about 75%, and therefore I don't like using them...as Don mentioned, they contain too much water, and it's common for the veneer to buckle and ripple no matter how much pressure you apply.

My success rate with Unibond is well above 95%, I'd say. And those rare failures were not adhesive related - my own goof-ups.

Contact cement might be something that you consider, but I'd say big thumbs down. Search this forum for 'contact cement' and you'll understand why much better.

good luck with your project! report back!


 
^ Top
Jake Davis

Posts: 5

Joined: 2007-02-14
Location: NJ

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Veneering Speaker Boxes
Posted : 2007-02-22 8:45 PM
Post #33647 - In reply to #33617
Panel sizes will be similar to this box: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=302-720
External Dimensions: 14" H x 8.5" W x 12.5" D
So that'd make for some 14" x 12.5" panels and smaller. I'll definitely use the urea formaldehydes, if you recommend them that much more highly over PVAs.
You made a very, very beautiful speaker. How did you make those edge pieces? Just round over the edge and cut them very thin? What tool did you use to cut them? I'm not sure I'd be able to pull off something quite that precise, but I sure can try
I really, really appreciate your time and effort in giving me advice!


 
^ Top
Brian Gray

Posts: 339

Joined: 2004-01-21
Location: Sandusky, OH

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Veneering Speaker Boxes
Posted : 2007-02-23 4:19 PM
Post #33650 - In reply to #33647
Thanks for the dimensions...that makes the answer a lot easier.

Since you are dealing with relatively small panels, you can just get away with standard screw clamps. Just buy enough so that every 9 square inches (3x3) or so is covered by a clamp, and make sure that you have probably three or four that have a throat of 6 inches or more so they can reach the center of your panel. Then use pieces of 3/4" MDF to act as cauls to sandwich your work. The MDF cauls will also spread the clamping pressure evenly. Then have at it.

If you have enough clamps, do multiple panels...otherwise relax and do one at a time...with urea fomaldahydes, obviously it will take a while one at a time, but it will be worth it to use them over PVA's. Sounds like you've never used urea formaldahydes, so read your mixing ratios carefully, and make sure that the panel cures in a warm environment as per the directions.

As far as my edge treatments go..

I assembled the speaker with rabbets. I think that someone here recommended miters, but I chose the make mine with rabbets. It is really no problem to get four of the panels to fit perfectly with miters, but when you add the 5th and 6th as a top and bottom, I didn't trust my skills to get those perfect, so I just went with rabbets.

I just simply made sure that the exposed end-grain of the rabbet joint would be slightly thinner that what my walnut strip would be after applying it.

Then when the speaker was assembled with the rabbets (endgrain exposed), I simply went to the tablesaw and cut away the needed grooves on all six sides to accomodate the walnut strips.

The walnut strips were glued in place a little proud, and then trimmed flush with handplanes.

Let me know if this is clear, especially the strategy with rabbets....it's not easy to put in print. Maybe I'll scan a drawing that could clear it up.

Good luck, and give updates!


 
^ Top
Jake Davis

Posts: 5

Joined: 2007-02-14
Location: NJ

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Veneering Speaker Boxes
Posted : 2007-02-23 7:17 PM
Post #33652 - In reply to #33650
I just typed a long response and accidently x'ed out the window. Let's see if I can remember everything

I'll just do one side at a time to make it easier for myself.

Now, I understand a rabbet is a type of joint. Are you saying you made a rabbet for the walnut strips to slide into or the rabbet is the removal of some of the veneer to make room for the walnut strips? I don't have a table saw (been using a circular saw to cut panels, guess I'll have to get one ).

My dad has a kerosene heater in the garage, so I can sit the panels in front of that while the glue cures.

What are handplanes?


 
^ Top
Brian Gray

Posts: 339

Joined: 2004-01-21
Location: Sandusky, OH

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Veneering Speaker Boxes
Posted : 2007-02-23 11:49 PM
Post #33653 - In reply to #33652
OK...It's a litle complicated...but I'll give it a whirl.

//Now, I understand a rabbet is a type of joint. Are you saying you made a rabbet for the walnut strips to slide into or the rabbet is the removal of some of the veneer to make room for the walnut strips? I don't have a table saw (been using a circular saw to cut panels, guess I'll have to get one ).//

I'm going to try to attach a JPG that makes this more clear...never posted a photo here, so let's see how it goes.

As far as the kerosene heater goes...you can certainly use this when constructing the panel, but just bring the panel inside the house where it's warm to cure...save on fuel.

If you aren't familiar with handplanes, then just stick with a flush trim router bit...if you've never used a handplane, then there's a lot to learn just to tune and sharpen them.

If this isn't clear, maybe we can do some emails off the forum and we'll get you squared away.


 
^ Top
Brian Gray

Posts: 339

Joined: 2004-01-21
Location: Sandusky, OH

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Veneering Speaker Boxes
Posted : 2007-02-23 11:56 PM
Post #33654 - In reply to #33652
OK...It's a litle complicated...but I'll give it a whirl.

//Now, I understand a rabbet is a type of joint. Are you saying you made a rabbet for the walnut strips to slide into or the rabbet is the removal of some of the veneer to make room for the walnut strips? I don't have a table saw (been using a circular saw to cut panels, guess I'll have to get one ).//

I'm going to try to attach a JPG that makes this more clear...never posted a photo here, so let's see how it goes.

As far as the kerosene heater goes...you can certainly use this when constructing the panel, but just bring the panel inside the house where it's warm to cure...save on fuel.

If you aren't familiar with handplanes, then just stick with a flush trim router bit...if you've never used a handplane, then there's a lot to learn just to tune and sharpen them.

If this isn't clear, maybe we can do some emails off the forum and we'll get you squared away.


 
^ Top
Brian Gray

Posts: 339

Joined: 2004-01-21
Location: Sandusky, OH

User Profile 
Subject : RE: Veneering Speaker Boxes
Posted : 2007-02-23 11:57 PM
Post #33655 - In reply to #33654
I'm having some issues getting the file below 50kb.

I'll email it to you.

bg
back
Navigate threads:
< Previous Thread :: Next Thread >
Legend      Notification  
Administrator
Forum Moderator
Registered User
Unregistered User
 Toggle e-mail notification


Logo by MAZY
Running MegaBBS ASP Forum Software v1.5.14b public beta