Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-02-12 2:48 PM
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blaine

Posts: 5

Joined: 2011-09-27
Location: Tacoma, Wa

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Subject : Vacuum Pressed "Skimboard" project
Posted : 2011-09-27 3:17 AM
Post #36469
Similar to a skateboard, skimboards are made up of several layers of pressed wood that are ridden, kicked and spun on thin water around along the edge of the beach as a recreational board sport. Typically skimboards are similar in length to longboards, but can be as wide as a surfboard.

I found this project and think its really similar to what I want to make...
http://forums.wakeboarder.com/viewtopic.php?t=74843

**Please Dont recommend Joe woodworker.com I've read every page on the site!! **

I want to make a professional grade skimboard, not the "Cut and Bend" kind that are all over the net. I break boards that are not pressed in the skateboard like multi ply PROFESSIONAL fashion.

"Pro" skimboard manufacturers charge a CRAZY AMOUNT $165-200+, I just wanna make my own few boards to ride.

--This variation or style of skimboard is called a flatland or inland skimboard due to its Wood Material, BI-directional shape and constant "rocker" (Term Used to describe the curve the board has enabling it to plane the surface of the water) from tip to tail as well as Side to side.

If you are reading this, I could really use your help. I am FULLY committed to making this project happen, even it it takes me YEARS. I'm not kidding. I have been saving and purchasing the tools to do make these for some time now... I am committed to getting this done and would really appreciate any of your help.

the board I will be making will be about 21" wide by 43" tall and 3/8" to 1/2"thick

I hope to press this out of 5 to 7 plys of 1/16" to 3/32" birch, maple or possibly a more affordable hard wood while I'm still "green" at making these boards. I hope what I wrote makes sense. I am unsure of the thickness of the plys I will use therefore the number I will use is still TBD.
______________________________________________________________________

I need help with a few aspects of this project::

** Wood selection, How to minimize waste and overspending.

** Making the mold I will use to laminate the layers of wood into shape: its pretty much a spoon shape.

** Buying Vinyl to make vacuum bag, Buying used Vacuum Pump
______________________________________________________________
**WOOD:
I want to vacuum press multiple layers of solid wood ply over a mold using epoxy resin to hold a curved shape. I want to figure out the best way to obtain the raw hardwood plys to layup this board.

The issues that I am having with wood selection are:

I don't think that plys 1/16" thick in come in sizes 21 inches wide

Maple Or Birch? Practice with something cheaper? I will have to complete the MOLD or form first so I still have time to decide.

I think it will probably be necessary to cross- band. I think that I could cut 4/4 Birch or Maple 7" wide lumber. into 3/32" plys.
I looked online and saw about using a band saw to cut your own veneer:
I thought this might be a good way for me to get the thin plys I need and save?

Please HELP!!

_____________________________________________________________________

** Making the mold
This will undoubtedly be the most difficult part for me, I have researched and determined I have two options: build a mold out of wood, or foam. I think Ideally I will have the pieces machined. I have a few sketches I made of the mold I am going to make.. I really want to get them machined so I know I have a perfect curve. I might make one myself for the first few tries though.

_________________________________________________________________________

** Getting Vinyl
I've read a lot that upholstery shops are a good place to get vinyl. I was wondering how THICK of vinyl do I need for this process? I am only bending a half inch or less of THIN wood on a curve is very wide only about half an inch. I was wondering If I could save and buy a thinner vinyl to make my bag. I know that, the more you pay the longer it lasts..... I've seen online people vacuum bagging carbon fiber on parts with VERY thin plastic?

___________________________________________________________________

**Buying a Pump. I have seen the cheapy harbor freight ones and would like soothing a bit more legit? I am worried about buying used because seems like some sellers are kind of shady and I don't know much about the pumps and have NO way of testing them. Id need a vac gauge for that, which I will probably need eventually so maybe ill grab one soon. I am hesitant to buy a used pump on like ebay because it might just not work, or break.


WELL, I know its a lot but I am trying to get this going and SOON! Thanks for reading, I'd love your input. Thanks!
Attached file : skimboards.jpg (23KB - 60 downloads)
Attached file : smaller one.jpg (29KB - 28 downloads)
Attached file : ribbed1.jpg (43KB - 33 downloads)
Attached file : smaller board.jpg (38KB - 33 downloads)



 
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Don Stephan

Posts: 825

Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: Vacuum Pressed "Skimboard" project
Posted : 2011-09-27 7:11 PM
Post #36473 - In reply to #36469
If I understand your post, you want to produce a curve both along the lendth and across the width, which would involve stretching the wood in one direction and/or compressing the wood in the other. I don't see how than can be done in a vacuum bag.


 
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blaine

Posts: 5

Joined: 2011-09-27
Location: Tacoma, Wa

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Subject : RE: Vacuum Pressed "Skimboard" project
Posted : 2011-09-28 1:13 AM
Post #36476 - In reply to #36473
I saw it done on the link I put in the original post:

http://forums.wakeboarder.com/viewtopic.php?t=74843

Basically just put them on top of the shape and compress them to the form with vacuum pressure


 
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mike mcnerney

Posts: 87

Joined: 2003-07-17
Location: ottawa ontario

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Subject : RE: Vacuum Pressed "Skimboard" project
Posted : 2011-09-28 5:44 AM
Post #36477 - In reply to #36476
Blaine,
it sounds like you are starting from scratch & don't have much bread.
You can buy 30 ml vinyl from plastics suppliers. A pump from harbour freight or Princess auto, are they in the states? This is the cheapest & the way Joe Woodworker gives you all the help you need to fo it on the sly. But if you you buy a system from Daryl or several others that are out there you will save time & the learning curve necessary. Maybe you can call a few local WW shops & find a used system?
I have never bent veneer this way myself but Daryl shows on his advanced techniques video doing a radius around a round table so I think it can be done.
To do 5 to 7 layers simultaneously may not be feasable however.
I might be inclined to build a small experimental mold of the proportions you want. Let's say 6 x 12 with 1/2" deflection. Make it out of dense styrofoam or mdf. You will have to carve it & sand to fare the curves.
Then try 2 sheets at a time then 4...
Start with some regular thickness veneer then try 1/16.
You may have to spritz the wood a bit?
Unless someone pipes in that has done this I think you have to start small.


 
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blaine

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Joined: 2011-09-27
Location: Tacoma, Wa

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Subject : RE: Vacuum Pressed "Skimboard" project
Posted : 2011-09-28 10:02 AM
Post #36478 - In reply to #36477
Hey mike, thanks for the tips. It is true, I don't have much of a budget for this project..... but I think with some thrifty-ness I can acheive the same results people get that buy $700 pump systems. With the JWW site and making my own pump, I think that I'd run into issues with seals and stuff. I am still considering it. I see used pumps on craigslist locally all the time, like this ::

Robin air vacuum pump 15600 - $100 (lacey wa)
http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/tls/2621420263.html

Most often I can find BETTER ones for that for about the same price

6 CFM Robinair Vacuum Pump - $95 (Lynnwood)
http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/tls/2615649215.html

I am going to get some MDF and make the mold out of that, i found this video i think it really helps:

Part 1: Building MDF ribbed longboard/skateboard press
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhDcfX6sV8U

I feel like the pumps at harbor freight look CHEAP, like they will break. I wonder if i did buy a new pump there If I could return it IF it busted ever. I am not sure I want to buy a used pump but have seen some decent deals online,

I really dont want to buy used and have it break or not work properly and have thrown my $$ away.

I agree that doing the whole board at once might not be the best way. I was thinking more recently I might press a few pcs into my own 1/8" thick panels using cross banding technique and wood glue or something cheaper to bond the plys, then use epoxy between the thicker 1/8" plys in the form.

The pro dudes boast their plys are bonded with epoxy. I REALLY dont think they are putting epoxy between EVERY ply in the board.

I drew up how I think I could lay up the panels, cutting 6" wide plys and mating them to make bigger size? then cross band next layer?

Attached file : layers of veneer.jpg (45KB - 26 downloads)



 
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Jim Clement

Posts: 18

Joined: 2007-03-06
Location: Seattle

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Subject : RE: Vacuum Pressed "Skimboard" project
Posted : 2011-09-28 7:32 PM
Post #36479 - In reply to #36478
Blaine - I like your "go for it attitude". I live in West Seattle and have a 4' by 8' bag, Compact 100 pump, platen etc, etc, and would be willing to help you press this project. If you are interested drop me an email at jfcbas at emm ess enn dot com. I also wonder about pressing a 2-D surface into a 3-D shape - there might be wrinkles and tears here and there, but I guess if you don't try, you can't fail. Look up Edensaw in Auburn (I think) - the best veneer supplier in the area. They might have what you want


 
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blaine

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Joined: 2011-09-27
Location: Tacoma, Wa

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Subject : RE: Vacuum Pressed "Skimboard" project
Posted : 2011-09-28 9:58 PM
Post #36480 - In reply to #36479
Hey jim,
I appreciate the encouragement, I do think that this project might have some unexpected bumps but I think it is do-able.

Its nice to finally get some support and I will shoot you an email soon, and appreciate you offering to help with the job.

I think that if I use multiple pieces of veneer mated together with tape/glue, and cross band the layers, since the curve isnt very far. only about a 1/2" to 3/4" of curve.

I have looked at the edensaw site, I will have to contact them soon to see what Pricing options they have.
I think I am after some core grade rotary cut maple or birch, but I am not sure,

I am trying to determine what would be more cost efficient, rotary cut plys the full size i need
OR
straight or other cut plys that have less width, and I'd join them together with tape to make the total width of the board.



** Would one be able to achieve more force using a hydraulic pressed jig vs. using a vacuum bag press??**






 
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mike mcnerney

Posts: 87

Joined: 2003-07-17
Location: ottawa ontario

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Subject : RE: Vacuum Pressed "Skimboard" project
Posted : 2011-09-29 6:16 AM
Post #36481 - In reply to #36480
With Mr. Clements offer you can get going. Of course a hydraulic press might create more force but I don't think you'll need it. With only a 3/4" 3-d bend I think the bag will be fine. I have done 2-d bends that I could hardly bend by hand & they worked out great.
Once you get your mould made amd some veneer prepped, start by putting one piece in on a dry run, then 2 & so on.
Make your mould bigger by a couple of inches & place it on top of another piece of mdf to raise it up 3/4" or so from the main 4 x 8 platten.
I think the breather mesh is a good idea too.
Then it will be a question of glues. You probably will need water proof or strong resistance in the long term.
Mike


 
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Don Stephan

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Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: Vacuum Pressed "Skimboard" project
Posted : 2011-09-29 7:53 PM
Post #36482 - In reply to #36480
In my opinion it would be best to use epoxy for each glue line. White and yellow glues will allow some spring back when unclamped, even if the glue is fully cured, and the pairs of laminations will be harder to bend back to the form when you try to glue the pair together.
List all your costs to make the 1st test piece, including table saw, router and router table, shop vac (a vacuum cleaner will quickly burn up from the fine dust), band saw, blades and bits, pump, vinyl, vinyl glue, materials for the vacuum pump system, mdf, veneer, . . . - you don't want to get half way in and then be overwhelmed with overall costs. Divide the total by 10 boards. Then estimate the number of hours that would be required,multiply that by 5, and divide that by 10 boards. Just so you know what to expect.
The video part 1 and 2 you gave was frightening in regard to the carelessness and exposure to dangerous bits and blades.
There's a reason commercial boards cost what they do - if they could be made for less they would. Just my two cents.


 
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blaine

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Joined: 2011-09-27
Location: Tacoma, Wa

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Subject : RE: Vacuum Pressed "Skimboard" project
Posted : 2011-09-29 9:16 PM
Post #36483 - In reply to #36482
Hey don, I agree with your opinion on using epoxy. An important factor is the Tg level, the Glass transition temperature. surfaces can heat up a lot in summer sun, I dont don't want your boards warping and twisting in the sun. I think that compiling a list of additional costs I will have to complete this project is a great Idea, I know I'm in the long haul so I like the idea of totaling up everything else I need. I do agree in those videos, it seemed a bit dicey his technique and the guys regard for safety. I included it to try and share the technique used with the router and putting a guide board on top of it. I've seen skateboards shapes cut out that way and though I could use it for the form/press construction too. I have a router table and plan to use a similar method.
I agree there is a reason why commercially produced boards cost, but some companies (I feel) add certain aesthetic properties aren't mandatory and increase in overall cost.

I'm trying to adapt something great, make it my own, make it more affordable and available to more people.


 
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craig tufankjian

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Joined: 2004-02-01
Location: syracuse ny 13208

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Subject : RE: Vacuum Pressed "Skimboard" project
Posted : 2011-10-03 9:13 PM
Post #36487 - In reply to #36483
Not to throw a monkey wrench into the skimboard project.....

I sounds like your going to make these in short run or possibly volume, if so I wouldn't bother with a vacuum press at all. You would be surprised, once you get past the form cost, how cheap the "skimboard" can be made in a RF press. If I had to make an educated guess I'd say 30.00 each.

If your going to make these in a short run I would use a male female form with clamps. I would also look at buying rotary cut faces pre-cut to your sizes instead of cross grain lay ups. Final face veneer would be supplied by you of course or art work on the face.

And yes, they do use epoxy. professional manufactures anyway.

Attached is a company I use for large runs. You can see from the front page the male/female form theory. Not to say you have to look to Greece for your product but they do a superb job.

http://www.curva.gr/
That's if Greece still has an economy, the entire country could be out of business tomorrow.

If your the Mcguyver type you can make your own hydraulic press.

Not that a Vacupress wont work but due to the 3d effect I would go hydraulic. I have done 3d work with mine.

As for the mold, I would consider having that done on a 5 axis CNC, a good mold is critical, and because yours goes in two different planes a 5 axis CNC is the way to eliminate errors. You can make the two blanks yourself, those are simple. If you need some CAD help with that let me know.

You may also get away with one form using a silicone press.
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