Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-02-12 2:48 PM
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Dennis Peacock

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Location: Conway, AR

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Subject : Veneering a curved table skirt - Advise needed
Posted : 2007-06-26 7:19 PM
Post #33885

Greetings,

I'm new to veneer work and I have a new vac-press (Venturi setup) and a 4' by 4' 30mil vinyl vac bag. I have a simple curved kitchen table skirt, 15" radius that I need to put an exterior veneer face on as well as the inside veneer face. I made the veneer's myself out of the same exact wood that the entire table is being made from. I even bought some Heatlock Adhesive to try on this project.

I just ordered the 2 veneering video's and am waiting for their shipment.

Any advise on how to best apply the veneer to these 4" wide table skirts?
Attached file : Arch_after_bandsaw_cut_009.jpg (42KB - 273 downloads)



 
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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved table skirt - Advise needed
Posted : 2007-06-26 8:42 PM
Post #33889 - In reply to #33885

Dennis,

I would recommend veneering this apron with what's called the "outside technique" which you will find covered in the "Working in a Vacuum" video you ordered. Basically you slide the bag over your apron like a sock without the platen in the bag and have some form of a bleeder material for air evacuation.

Sincerely
Darryl Keil


 
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Don Stephan

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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved table skirt - Advise needed
Posted : 2007-06-26 8:45 PM
Post #33890 - In reply to #33885

I've never heard of Heatlock Adhesive so I'm not sure what impact that particular product might have on the process.

Regardless, I'd suggest first using some extra of the same species of veneer and "press" it to the form without any adhesive, to see how well it will flex to the curvature, and to get some experience working with a curve.

To my thinking, a 15" radius will be challenging, depending upon the preferred grain direction for your veneer.

The two videos should help greatly.


 
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Dennis Peacock

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved table skirt - Advise needed
Posted : 2007-06-27 8:58 AM
Post #33895 - In reply to #33890

Heatlock is a new adhesive that you apply to the non-show face of the veneer as well as to the substrate that you are veneering. Allow it to dry for about 20 minutes, then apply the veneer to the substrate and start ironing it on with a medium heat iron. It works good as I've experimented with it, I just need to figure out how to get my homemade veneer to not crack along the grain while doing this.


 
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Don Stephan

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved table skirt - Advise needed
Posted : 2007-06-28 8:31 AM
Post #33906 - In reply to #33895

Now I'm really confused. If you're planning to use an iron-activated adhesive, you won't be using a vacuum bag will you?

Seems like an iron won't make very good contact with the inner concave side of the apron, and will even be challenged on the convex side of a 15" radius ...

I tried using a hot iron and PVA glue once, with disastrous results. Make sure your veneer is very dry, as the heat will cause it to shrink if not dry. I'd suggest a moisture meter.

I was veneering bookmatched olive ash burl. I'd had to flatten the burl, and had waited about a week to be sure the veneer was completely dry. It wasn't, and about half the seams opened up enough to be very obvious. Spent untold hours practicing with shellac and touchup colors to hide the putty. Lost a lot on that job.


 
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Dennis Peacock

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Location: Conway, AR

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved table skirt - Advise needed
Posted : 2007-06-29 8:19 PM
Post #33911 - In reply to #33906

Well...IF I had more time to "make" more veneer and learn how to best use this new Heatlock Adhesive? Then I wouldn't be asking questions about vac-pressing the veneer on....but....my time is extremely limited as I work at least 60 hours a week at a fulltime job and build furniture when I'm not at work....as long as the family doesn't mind too bad.

Any way...I better go and watch my new video's that I got in today from Vacuum Pressing Systems Inc. :-D


 
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Don Stephan

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved table skirt - Advise needed
Posted : 2007-06-29 9:02 PM
Post #33912 - In reply to #33911

If I seemed unencouraging in the last post, my apologies - it certainly wasn't intended.

From your description of the Heatlock adhesive, I assumed its usual use is to apply to the substrate and veneer, let partially dry, then lay the veneer onto the veneer and activate the two layers of Heatlock (and adhere the veneer to the substrate) by applying heat from an iron.

Lots of people have done this, with acceptable results, but I think they generally are working one of two situations:
adhering veneer to a flat surface, such as the side or top of a box, and
adhering edging (typically 1-2" wide) to the edge of a table, which may be rectangular or round.

When iron-activating adhesive on a two-dimensional flat surface (such as the side of a box or the edge of a rectangular table) there is good contact with the flat bottom of the iron. When iron-activating adhesive on the edge of a round table there is only contact between the (hot) bottom of the iron and the table edge along a narrow vertical strip so it can be slightly more challenging to heat a section of the curved table edge uniformly without overheating. But the contact area of the iron presses the veneer into the activated adhesive as one works along the edge.

Veneering a table apron would be very similar to edge veneering a round table, except that the apron would be 3-4" wide where the table edge would be 1-2" wide. There is one additional difference as you know, though: the apron has outer and inner surfaces. And for balancing purposes (to maintain the radius of the apron over time) the inside surface should be veneered similarly to the outside surface.

Iron-activating the Heatlock adhesive on the outside or convex side of the apron is identical to the situation with a round table edge - the iron will at any point in time be in contact with a narrow strip of the outer surface but with some patience and uniform movement of the iron the adhesive can be activated and the veneer uniformly pressed into the adhesive.

But on the inner (concave) side of the apron, the iron is only going to contact the veneer along the two edges of the iron. The adhesive will be activated in these two narrow bands and the veneer bonded. But because there is an area of veneer between these two narrow strips that is not being pressed, it is quite possible the veneer will not be contacting the curved apron between these two narrow bands and will have a smaller radius than the apron, meaning the veneer would have to be stretched to contact the substrate. You could try using just the triangular tip of the iron on the back or concave side of the apron, but I don't think it's going to work significantly better.

I think it's going to be very difficult to get a good bond with iron-activated veneer on the inside surface of a curved substrate, but it's just my opinion.

My best advice, no matter what method you decide to use, is to use inexpensive veneer and a similarly curved substrate first and see if the results are acceptable.



 
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Dennis Peacock

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved table skirt - Advise needed
Posted : 2007-07-07 9:51 PM
Post #33937 - In reply to #33912

Don,

No offense taken.

I've made the decision to NOT use the HeatLock Adhesive and try to come up with the money to get me a Lamination Bag for my press and then "press" the back and front veneer's on that way. I figure that I'd need something like a 24" by 72" bag so not to stress the edges of the bag. Is my thinking correct? Skirt is only 4" wide by 3/4" thick without the veneer faces.


 
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Darryl Keil

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved table skirt - Advise needed
Posted : 2007-07-07 9:58 PM
Post #33938 - In reply to #33937

Dennis,

If I'm seeing this right you should not need anywhere near a 24" wide bag. You would just slide the bag over your apron like a sock. I figure an 8" wide bag ought to be plenty. From the picture I cant be sure of the length but definitely much less on the width.

Sincerely
Darryl Keil


 
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Bruce Berman

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Joined: 2005-06-01
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa., USA

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved table skirt - Advise needed
Posted : 2007-07-01 5:27 PM
Post #33913 - In reply to #33885

Dennis, Just to clear up things a little; I don,t think that Darryl's suggestion inclued using your heat lock glue but a more traditional veneer glue like Plastic Resin or PVA. As suggested by Don HeatLock is inappropriate for most curved surfaces even if it seems easier. You will also need some sort of flexible caul over the veneer inside the bag to make sure that the pressure is applied evenly.

As an alternative, since your project is small, you could stack up some MDF and trace a clamp ing form using your core for a stencil for both inside and outside surfaces. Tape your veneer temporarily on your core before you trace your line to compensate for the thickness of your veneer. Apply masking tape to your form to prevent sticking and to fill any voids in the form.

Bruce Berman
Miracle Veneer Trimmer



 
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Don Stephan

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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: Veneering a curved table skirt - Advise needed
Posted : 2007-07-08 4:22 PM
Post #33939 - In reply to #33913

Dennis:

Sorry I keep asking questions ...

Are you planning to make a one-piece cylindrical apron with approximately a 15" radius, or two or more pieces that will be assembled into the final apron with or without legs?

If making a cylindrical apron, you might be able to veneer it with your 4x4 bag, especially since it's 30 mil. Try drawing a partial vacuum with just the substrate in the bag to see if the bag is large enough to conform to both the outer and inner surfaces. You could do this with a grooved platen just slightly (1"?) longer and wider than the outer diameter of the apron cylinder, or with a piece of Evacunet (available from Vacu Press) perhaps a couple inches longer and wider than the apron cylinder.

If pressing the apron in two or more pieces, you could still use the same process as in the previous paragraph, but it would be more convenient to have a long and narrow bag ("sock" as demonstrated in Darryl's 2nd video pressing a curved stringer. In your case, the sock would conform to the curved substrate and press the veneers to it, where his example used the sock simply to clamp the laminations to each other and an external form to provide the final shape.

I have used the Evacunet for just a couple times and there is a learning curve. Order two or three times as much as you expect to need as I didn't realize where and how it would need to be placed.


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