Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-09-09 11:09 AM
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Brian H.

 
Subject : Basic Questions About Edges
Posted : 2006-01-20 10:16 PM
Post #32730
I've put together a system to work with bent laminations. However, I find myself wanting to play a little with some highly figured veneer. I think a good 'learning'project would be the table-top of a slender hall table. Imagine a table top about 48" long and about 12" wide. The top and bottom seem relatively straight forward. It's the sides that make me wonder. I don't have any solid wood that figured, so it seem I would have to veneer the sides. I have three substrate choices readily available, MDF, Baltic Birch, and Yellow Poplar. I've never asked any furnature-making friends what they used as a substrate for table tops. I'm hoping someone here can answer a few questions to get me started.

1. Which substrate would you use for a project like this (the table top of a contemporary hall table).
2. How would you address the sides? I assume you'd veneer the sides? Are the sides put on after the top and bottom, or before? Any difference in the end-grain side of the top?

Thank you so much for taking the time to read my post.

Brian


 
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Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

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Subject : RE: Basic Questions About Edges
Posted : 2006-01-22 6:31 PM
Post #32731 - In reply to #32730
Brian,

I would use the MDF or Baltic Birch, not the solid poplar.

You can approach the edges a number of ways. I like to put a trim of solid wood around the top afterwards, usually with a inlay between the two, looks classy and frames it out nicely. Also protects the veneer. For a top, especially with medium exposure, I would not veneer the edge, too fragile. Now, sometimes you do see short grain veneer on table edges but that tends to be in period pieces and you say yours is contemporary.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely
Darryl Keil


 
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Brian H.

 
Subject : RE: Basic Questions About Edges
Posted : 2006-01-23 11:46 AM
Post #32732 - In reply to #32731
Thanks, Darryl. So, let me review. I should glue up my panel (probably two layers of 1/2" MDF glued together, since that's what I have in the studio right now), veneering both the top and bottom. Make the panel slightly oversize so it can be trimmed to size with the table saw (or router?). Cut a solid wood edge (1" thick, maybe two inches wide), with mitred corners, to glue on the edges.

Two more questions, if I may.

1. Is the glue going to be enough, or should I look for an inexpensive biscuit cutter and use biscuits?
2. Do you ever have trouble getting the edges flush with the panel?

Thanks again for your help.

Brian


 
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Brian H.

 
Subject : RE: Basic Questions About Edges
Posted : 2006-01-23 11:56 AM
Post #32733 - In reply to #32731
One more detail...

Adding an inlay:

Is this right? I glue the edges to the panel. Then, I use a router to route a shallow groove on the line between the panel and the veneer, 1/2 on the veneer, 1/2 on the solid wood? I insert the solid inlay, which would be pre-sanded to the exact depth of the routed groove.

If I end up with a high spot on the inlay, what would you use to reduce it? With veneer I'm afraid of running it through the Performax.

Thanks again.

Brian


 
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Brian Gray

Posts: 339

Joined: 2004-01-21
Location: Sandusky, OH

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Subject : RE: Basic Questions About Edges
Posted : 2006-01-23 2:43 PM
Post #32734 - In reply to #32733
I'll try to answer some of your questions.

//1. Is the glue going to be enough, or should I look for an inexpensive biscuit cutter and use biscuits?//
Biscuits would work fine. But if you don't own a biscuit jointer, I wouldn't bother buying one. I would just cut grooves in the substrate as well as the edging, and add a spline.

//2. Do you ever have trouble getting the edges flush with the panel?//
I prefer to make the edge slightly proud and then trim down with a flush trim bit (carefully...let the bearing ride on the veneer, and allow the cutters to extend only enough to trim your edge and not touch the veneer if the router happens to rock.)
My preference to make sure that I don't cut any veneer is to put a couple of layers of tape on the veneer so that the bearing rides slightly proud of the desired level, and then use a hand-plane or scraper to level from there....a little more work, but it makes the whole operation a little less stressful. It's also easier to creep up on a perfectly flush edge with a handplane than a router...for this reason, I like the tape method.

You mentioned that you would like to make your edge 1-2 inches wide....I would make it less than that, unless there is some design reason to make it thicker. 1/2" or less...it will make the flush trimming process a lot easier.

//If I end up with a high spot on the inlay, what would you use to reduce it? With veneer I'm afraid of running it through the Performax.//
Again, in this situation you want to purposely make the inlay proud of the substrate and then trim. You can't use a flush-trim bit in the router this time, so I would reach for a handplane or scraper.

When trimming your edge with a handplane, make sure that the plane is well tuned and taking a VERY light shaving. You will take tiny shavings of veneer when you get near flush, and you don't want to remove very much.

Hope this helps...post pictures when you are done...we'd love to see it!


 
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Mitch

 
Subject : RE: Basic Questions About Edges
Posted : 2006-01-24 11:23 PM
Post #32736 - In reply to #32733
The video they sell on this web site demonstrates how to make a top with solid edges and banding just as recommended by the other posters. It also covers all the veneering basics in a surprisingly (refreshingly) non-commercial way. I've never bought a "how-to" video before, but this one was quite helpful. (I should have listened to the advice about removing the masking tape after applying the veneer tape. I did forget, and I actually ended up glueing the veneer down with the masking tape still on! I actually didn't notice until I started to sand...)

http://www.vacupress.com/videos.htm

Mitch


 
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Darryl Keil

Posts: 1455

Joined: 2003-05-22
Location: Maine

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Subject : RE: Basic Questions About Edges
Posted : 2006-01-25 9:17 AM
Post #32737 - In reply to #32733
Brian,

Brian G really covers your questions well but let me add a technique that yields a nice inlay affect.

Before you glue on the solid edging, glue from one to three pieces of veneer to the glue face of this solid edging. Depending on the color of you veneered top and solid edging I commonly use a white/black/white or black/white/black combo. Once this veneer is glued onto the solid edging and trimmed flush I then attach it to the table. This way you don't have to rout in the inlay since its already on the solid wood. It looks pretty sharp as well and everyone wonders how you inlaid these three fine lines of wood in between your top and edging.

Sincerely
Darryl Keil


 
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Brian H.

 
Subject : RE: Basic Questions About Edges
Posted : 2006-01-27 10:56 AM
Post #32748 - In reply to #32737
Thanks everyone. I'm absorbing every word. Scrapers and planes... you know, I've watched people use them many times, but I haven't had the need until now. Do you have a recommendation about which plane works best for this type of use? You could even point to one directly at either Rockler or Woodcraft, or even woodworker.com if you have the time. I regularly purchase from all.

Darryl- I was *wondering* about just putting a couple of strips with the solid wood (before you posted). Seems to make a lot of sense.


 
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Brian Gray

Posts: 339

Joined: 2004-01-21
Location: Sandusky, OH

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Subject : RE: Basic Questions About Edges
Posted : 2006-01-27 1:41 PM
Post #32749 - In reply to #32748
Honestly, everyone might have a varying opinion when it comes to handplane selection. I'll give you my take on it.

I would either choose Lie-Nielson, or Lee Valley. For me, it breaks down this way. LN has fantastic planes, and you pay for them. LV has planes of the exact same quality, but they are 2/3 to cost of LV, and they've made some improvements (for instance, frog adustment). I own planes from both companies, and I can't tell any difference in the results. For the price, and what I consider better engineering, I usually go with Lee Valley.

For your edge and inlay trimming jobs to be done, I would look at this plane...
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=47881&cat=1,41182,48942

Make sure that you have read up on sharpening and plane tuning. If you aren't getting results that you want, 95% of the time it's the plane that's improperly tuned.

Another option that is quite viable is to look at flea markets, antique stores, etc for old pre-war Stanleys. If you have the skills to refurbish and tune an old plane, I have some old stanleys that I got for $50 or so, and they perform perfectly after some tweaking, perhaps replacing the iron.

You also mentioned scrapers...you can get cabinet scrapers from pretty much anyplace. There's no real quality issues there. It's just a scrap of metal.

Just be careful...once you get started, it's slippery!


 
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Jeffrey Jackson

 
Subject : RE: Basic Questions About Edges
Posted : 2006-01-27 2:55 PM
Post #32751 - In reply to #32749
Brian,

All great information here, but if you are truely wanting to learn, look up Marc Adams Woodworking School on the net. Daryl did not mention it, but he will be teaching a class and you can learn in person. Great classes and fairly priced.


 
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tim borys

Posts: 7

Joined: 2006-02-02
Location: Winnipeg, CANADA

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Subject : RE: Basic Questions About Edges
Posted : 2006-02-04 12:41 AM
Post #32791 - In reply to #32737
That's a great idea Darryl but just one comment for Brian if he intends to go the handplane route. When you glue that inlay to the inside surface of your edging, make sure the grain orientation on the inlay piece is the same as your edging. Otherwise you'll risk some little micro tearout on that inlay when you trim it flush with the plane. It will be minimal on a piece that thin but then again it's the kind of detail that needs to be "tight" to really look good and even minor tearout will show up come finishing time. The scrapers will be quite a bit more forgiving on this, as long as you take the time to read how to burnish a scraper (they're not ready to use right out of the package). And 2 cents on the plane selection, the Lie-Neilson low-angle block plane with adjustable mouth would be my choice.
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