Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-02-12 2:48 PM
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Jim Ritch

Posts: 16

Joined: 2010-06-25
Location: Dahlonega, GA

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Subject : Butt Joints
Posted : 2010-07-02 5:28 AM
Post #36084
Being new to veneering, I have been practicing on scraps and, so far, my biggest problem has been cutting the veneer. I have tried a veneer saw and found that it takes too many strokes to cut and with each stroke I run the risk of wobbling the blade. A simple rigid utility knife seems to be the easiest. After cutting I clamp the veneer between two straight boards and use my router to make a climb cut with a trim bit.

All is well with my system as long as I am doing ripping. I cannot seem to master cuts for butt joints. Is there a secret to getting an invisible seam? Do I need to cut with a slight back bevel?

Would appreciate any suggestions.



 
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Enrico Konig

Posts: 74

Joined: 2006-01-06
Location: Vancouver, BC

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Subject : RE: Butt Joints
Posted : 2010-07-02 11:42 AM
Post #36085 - In reply to #36084
Butt joints will never be invisible. One of the best ways to make them as good as they can be, however, is with the veneer saw. But like a new plane blade you will have to sharpen it and tune it up first to get satisfactory results. Paul Schurch in his first video will show you how to sharpen & use this saw. I found this video as invaluable in getting me started as were Darryl Keil's 2 videos -- get them all, it will be the best investment you can make at this point. Utility knifes have their place in veneer trimming (and Paul Schurch in that video does expertly wield his giant chisel like an utility knife while explaining why it gives superior results to an utility knife) but the thin blade will often wander and follow the grain instead of your straight edge. Eventually I was doing enough veneer work to justify buying a Festool saw and, like many others on this forum, I now use it for most of my long-grain & cross-grain cuts. Some wood species are trickier (chippier) than others though and I do still find that my (very sharp) veneer saw will give the best cross-grain results on those trickier woods.

Good luck!


 
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ckurak

Posts: 107

Joined: 2006-10-28
Location: Florida

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Subject : RE: Butt Joints
Posted : 2010-07-02 8:53 PM
Post #36086 - In reply to #36084
I agree with Enrico. Get Paul's and Darryl's videos. All four are top notch videos with lots of great information. If you have the opportunity, take one of Paul's 2 day seminars.

The veneer saw, properly sharpened, will make a straight cut. You will need to hold it perpendicular to the veneer. Paul has a special straight edge for doing this that you will see in the video.

You can also use a very straight piece of wood as well. For example, take a 2x4. Using a jointer, make the adjacent surfaces along one long edge perfectly perpendicular to each other. (You can use a table saw to get the other two surfaces parallel as well.) Then, place that good long edge on your veneer where you want to get a straight cut. By running the veneer saw along the perfectly perpendicular surface of the 2x4, you should get a much improved cut.

The real "trick" to getting a good clean cut is a well-sharpened veneer saw. Like Enrico mentioned, it must be sharpened, even if it is brand new from the factory.

Now, make that 2x4 out of hardwood so it stays straight and lasts longer. Or, simply go to Paul's website and buy his straight edge. His does more than your 2x4 will, but the 2x4 is an inexpensive way to get started.

By the way, there are times and conditions where you can "hide" certain seams. A trained eye can still find them. And, once you learn the methods you will be able to do so as well. But, often you cannot hide seams perfectly.

Good luck!


 
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Don Stephan

Posts: 825

Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: Butt Joints
Posted : 2010-07-03 6:42 PM
Post #36087 - In reply to #36084
The two prior replies have provided great info and encouragement. Regarding butt joints themselves, they should not be necessary in most instances. Other than burls, crotches and stumps, veneer leaves generally are 8-10' long. Scraps are a great way to develop confidence and skills, but butt joints are going to stand out unless made decorative. With burls, crotches and stumps, a double book match or even pairs of double book matches probably wouldn't be considered butt joints but decorative matches. If longer veneer isn't available, one could use quarter sliced on a slight diagonal as an elongated diamond match, and I'm sure there are some other ways more imaginative members of the forum could make a butt joint decorative.
Let us know if you still have questions.


 
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Jim Ritch

Posts: 16

Joined: 2010-06-25
Location: Dahlonega, GA

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Subject : RE: Butt Joints
Posted : 2010-07-04 5:34 AM
Post #36089 - In reply to #36087
Enrico and ckurak.... My use of an "invisible seam" in my initial posting was a poor choice of words. I do not expect an invisible seam merely the best joint I can get. Sounds like I need to spend some more time practicing cuts with the veneer saw. In fairness, I was using a friend's saw which probably wasn't sharp. Was trying to decide the best cutting method for me before buying. I do have one of Darryl's videos but did not know about Paul.

Don... Although I did not mention it, my project is a chest with burl top and drawer fronts. See photo with my earlier post entitled, "Veneer Identification." The drawer fronts will have a contrasting border around the burl. With the border, I will have very visible butt joints. It is these joints that I am most concerned about.

Enrico, ckurak, & Don... Thanks for taking the time to provide your suggestions. The expertise on this forum is very impressive. If you have any further suggestions, particularly with respect to my chest project, they would be most welcome.



 
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ckurak

Posts: 107

Joined: 2006-10-28
Location: Florida

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Subject : RE: Butt Joints
Posted : 2010-07-04 9:04 AM
Post #36090 - In reply to #36089
Jim,

I took another look at the "border" on the drawer fronts on that chest. It appears that the border is a thin (3/4"? wide) strip of veneer that goes around the burl. It looks like many of them are mitered (45 degree cut) on the corners. They give the appearance of solid wood. However, the bottom drawer looks like a butt joint to me on the top two corners. Interesting.

Miter cuts are relatively easy to make. During assembly of the entire front (burl and solid edges), simply overlap the solid pieces a bit. Then use a chisel, or a scalpel with a straight-edge, to make a precise cut. I suggest you practice this a little until you are happy with the results.

One would expect to see such joints where the grain changes direction. Now, a butt joint in the middle of an edge will probably look like you did not plan well and ran out of long material. That would look like a mistake in most cases. Unless... Unless the "look" of the piece used short sections all over. Personally, I don't think that is a design element in your current project.

Paul's (Decorative Veneering) video demonstrates how to assemble the veneer pieces as an entire face before gluing anything. It is during this phase that the corners would be cut. And, if you make a mistake, you can simply remove the damaged pieces and try again.

Oh, did I say "scalpel"? Yup. I never use a utility knife. I never use a hobby knife. After watching Paul's video, I learned to use a scalpel. Much, much sharper. (Paul does sell these on his website: handle and blades sold separately.) They are very inexpensive and do a much better job.


Note: I am not promoting any one source for personal financial gain. I have no financial stake in either of their companies. These supplies are available at other places as well. I just have found that Darryl and Paul have both taken the time and effort to share their knowledge. And, I personally use them when I need supplies and equipment. My flip-top system is from Darryl. It is great. Many of my tools are from Paul. They are great. All 4 videos are an excellent source of information, both introductory and advanced. Just thought I would let folks know where I stand on this.


 
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Don Stephan

Posts: 825

Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: Butt Joints
Posted : 2010-07-04 4:02 PM
Post #36092 - In reply to #36089
Jim:
As ckurak pointed out, the 45 deg miters are not difficult to lay out in advance and double cut. Regarding that lighter border, it's not uncommon to use quartersliced veneer with the grain all the way around pointing towards the middle of the drawer front. In that case, the corners will still be miters but the joints within each piece of the border can be a simple slip joint.
Need to finish re-doing my web site to allow direct links, but if you go to my home page www.stephanwoodworking.com and click on the "Portfolio of Past Projects" link, on that page click the "Desks and Tables" link, and at the bottom of that page look at the two mahog crotch sample tabletops you'll find one with a cross-grain quartered satinwood banding, and the other with cross grain quartered padauk in a three part binding and cross grain quartered mahogany border.


 
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Jim Ritch

Posts: 16

Joined: 2010-06-25
Location: Dahlonega, GA

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Subject : RE: Butt Joints
Posted : 2010-07-05 6:45 AM
Post #36096 - In reply to #36092
Don and ckurak.... Thanks for some excellent advice. It is obvious you both know your craft. Don you have a great web site and your work is very impressive.. quite inspiring.

At the risk of wearing out my welcome on this forum and displaying my ignorance, I have a few basic questions regarding the drawer fronts on my chest project. Right now I am leaning toward walnut burl surrounded by a butternut border.

1. I had planned to use soft maple as the substrate for the drawers, and for the drawer components, but am unsure of how to treat the drawer front edges. The drawers will be inset with half blind dovetails. Is it best to continue the border veneer onto the edges or simply use a walnut veneer? How do I handle the dovetails so the pins contrast with the sides? Can veneer be applied to the edges then cut the dovetails?

2. I will have to apply a dye and glaze to the walnut burl to get an antique appearance. How do I do that without affecting the butternut border? Can the burl be dyed and glazed before assembling the veneer and border for gluing to the substrate? Would I be better served by using a border veneer of a wood that when dyed/glazed the same as the burl would give me a look close to that in my project photo?

Thanks again for your helpful advice.



 
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Don Stephan

Posts: 825

Joined: 2003-07-18
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

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Subject : RE: Butt Joints
Posted : 2010-07-05 6:22 PM
Post #36101 - In reply to #36096
Jim:
Haven't made a drawer front like that, so no experience here.
Not at all sure about trying to dye, and especially glaze, loose veneer. Sounds like a bad idea to me. Ditto with veneering edges then cutting dovetails. I'd think chipping very likely.
You might visit a woodworking store and local library looking for how to books that describe a project like this. See how someone else did it.
Not infrequently the drawers were given a **** bead that protected the veneer on the front, and provided some formality for the drawer sides. Again, woodworking texts might describe **** bead in detail. I've seen at least two different approaches, so look for more than one reference.
Trying to mask off parts of every drawer to dye, seal, glaze, and then add finish to the masked areas to even out the film buildup sounds very very challenging, my two cents.


 
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Jim Ritch

Posts: 16

Joined: 2010-06-25
Location: Dahlonega, GA

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Subject : RE: Butt Joints
Posted : 2010-07-07 5:39 AM
Post #36107 - In reply to #36101
Don.... The more I consider the drawers on this project the more I am inclined to use some form of **** beading. As for the dye/glaze problem, I think I will strive for a wood for the border that when stained the same as the burl will produce a contrast I can live with. I think I am making this project too complicated.
Thanks again for your excellent advice.
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