Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-09-09 11:09 AM
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Brad

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Subject : Engineered Flooring Q
Posted : 2010-01-04 10:18 AM
Post #35828

I am making some 11" wide borders for my floor and I am contemplating making them in a similar fashion to engineered flooring. The wear surface is approximately 1/4" thick and I am planning to bond this to 1/2" baltic birch using UniBond 800. I know that the wear thickness is thicker than all traditional veneers and I know the reasons why I should go to a thickness less than 1/8", but if the engineered flooring market can do it, I think I can too. I am doing some tests first to confirm this will work since I cannot mimick engineered flooring exactly. Most engineered flooring products use a PUR adhesive and a hot press that I do not have.

The problem is the 2.5" wide x 11" long slats are to have a small chamfer on both sides. I am having a bit of problem with glue squeezing out and filling the chamfers. Since there are over 300 slats to make and bond to sheets, I am trying to sort this out now so I can avoid a ton of time with a card scraper fixing squeeze out. I am thinking about measuring the volume of glue and I am interested in your opinion what minimum thickness might yield a solid glue bond. I was thinking 1/64" might be a start? There is still one other problem with this solution. I dont quite know how to account for the volume that is absorbed into the foam roller.

Here is a link to a pic of the second trial with one finish coat.

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/Flooring%20Batch%202/DSC02524.jpg

Thanks
Brad


 
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Don Stephan

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Subject : RE: Engineered Flooring Q
Posted : 2010-01-05 8:10 PM
Post #35830 - In reply to #35828

An alternative would be to glue the same 1/4" thick stock to both sides of 1/4" baltic birch plywood, to even out stresses. I'd guess the engineered flooring is finished on all surfaces to equalize the rate of moisture movement into and out of the flooring.

Not sure how accurately you'll be able to lay down a glue film. Can you make the pieces slightly oversize, trim to final width (removing the squeezeout) and then chamfer?


 
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Brad

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Subject : RE: Engineered Flooring Q
Posted : 2010-01-06 9:38 PM
Post #35832 - In reply to #35830

I agree about the difficulty of maintaining the glue line, but I will do a few more tests. My lumber supply is 500mi away and the trucking for a small quantity does not make any sense. I am having a bit of hard time justifying $2k for a border in two rooms. It is good practice for the upcoming parquet flooring I am buidling.

It is not really possible to chamfer the pieces after pressing. I was planning to build these in 11"x60" lengths and the chamfers are parallel to the 11" dimension so the only option to make the chamfers would be with hand tools after pressing. The chamfers are around 1/8" deep so making 300 of them would be a bit much. I prep all the blanks on the shaper, cut them to length and then press them on.

I suppose I could add another layer of 1/4" to the back, but by that point I have not saved any of the expensive material and the time to produce these will go up quite a bit.

I checked the Mirage Flooring site, but I cannot find any notes about a finish to the underside. From my recollection I do not believe they finish the bottom. My trial turned out great, and I hope my submersion test will prove it works ok.

Thanks
Brad



 
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Don Stephan

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Subject : RE: Engineered Flooring Q
Posted : 2010-01-08 7:31 PM
Post #35838 - In reply to #35832

I'm still confused as to the need to chamfer before veneering. Don't see how you're going to get every 2" x 10 6/8" piece of veneer perfectly aligned on pre-chamfered pieces. If they can bev chamfered before veneering, why can't they be chamfered after veneering?
You could veneer 12" x 12" pieces of ply with taped up sheets of veneer. Sand. Joint one edge with the grain perfectly flat and straight. Using a cutoff sled trim one end perpendicular, then cut the other end to 11" length. Rip 2 strips. Then chamfer using whichever method you intend to chamfer. No squeezeout issues, chamfer is perfect on each 22" x 2" piece, no?


 
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Brad

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Subject : RE: Engineered Flooring Q
Posted : 2010-01-27 7:08 PM
Post #35878 - In reply to #35838

The 17/64"x2.5"x12" wide strips have small chamfer on both edges (around 1/8". I am bonding 24 strips to a 12"x60" piece of 1/2" BB. The strips are bonded to the substrate perpendicular to its length. If I wanted to chamfer the strips after I would either need a machine that could fit a 60" wide board or I would have to do this with a router and guide. I am chamfering the blanks in bulk on the shaper and this saves me quite a bit of time. I rough size the blanks, and then final size with a cutterhead that chamfers and sizes at the same time. After the blanks are prepped I can quickly cut them to length and off to the press I go. I prepped up 150 strips in a couple of hours.

I have done many tests now, and it is working wonderful. I am using a 1/16"x1/4" notched trowel to apply the adhesive. This gives me an average of 1/64" thick glue line and the trowel makes it easy to apply uniformly. I am getting a small amount of squeeze out between the joints, but so long as I clean this off immediately after it comes out of the bag, it is easy to fix.

Since I do not want to deal with any problems of glue failure I thought I should complete a few tests. They are not incredibly scientific, but I think they give me a good idea. The first test I used unibond 800 to bond the wear layer to the BB. I submerged the unfinished wear layer into water and after around 36hrs the bond failed perfectly at the glue line. I also submered the wear layer of another sample that I used Unibond to adhere the two surface, but this one had two coats of varathane on the wear layer and the sides. After 48hrs it is still perfect. I was not pleased that the bond failed perfectly clean on my first test, so now trying West 610 Epoxy (this stuff is great to work with) and PL Premium. Both the epoxy and PL premium are rated as structural adhesives. I hope the bond failure when I submerge the un-finished samples will pull wood fibers from the substrate and not leave a perfectly clean surface. I will post all my test pics and results if you are interested.

Brad


 
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Don Stephan

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Subject : RE: Engineered Flooring Q
Posted : 2010-01-28 7:21 PM
Post #35881 - In reply to #35878

Not sure why you are submerging in water, unless the finished planks will be submerged. Moisture levels can cause wood to expand/contract, cup, twist, curl without affecting glue line. If the flooring is going to be exposed to moisture levels comparable to submerging, the wood will fail in short order even if glue line intact. Just my 2 cents.


 
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Brad

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Subject : RE: Engineered Flooring Q
Posted : 2010-01-29 11:54 AM
Post #35887 - In reply to #35881

Don, I agree the test is extreme. My goal is to prove that my glue joint is adequate. When/if the wear layer fails I want there to be wear layer fibers attached to the substrate, so I know the material failed and not my adhesive selection.

The tech specs for Urea Adhesives actually suggest pressures in the range of 100 to 200psi for a rigid glue line, and our vac bags produce a fraction of that. I know, I know, thats simply crazy pressure, but they are the manufacturer. A hot press does produce the required bond pressures to comply with the manuf. specs. I think if I were ever to do this for a client it would be prudent to adhere to the manuf specs of whatever adhesive I use.

None of the samples have failed in short order. The glue line failure in first sample did pretty much what I expected once the glue line failed. It simply started spreading away from the substrate. The substrate looked fine at that time.

The PL Premium and the Epoxy samples have not shown any sign of change after 24hrs and I doubt either samples will fail. The advantage of these adhesives for this application is the vac bag will produce enough pressure to meet the tech specs. Both are extremly good gapping glues also.

Maybe I am just a fretter, but that comes from my background.
Brad


 
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Don Stephan

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Subject : RE: Engineered Flooring Q
Posted : 2010-01-29 6:19 PM
Post #35888 - In reply to #35887

Just my opinion, but if you are worried about the glue line failing during use, devise a test representing that use. Unless you expect the floor to be submerged, I don't see the relevance of that test.

If you're worried that walking back and forth on the floor will cause the glue line to fail, a test applying repeated light blows might simulate that use. Not sure what you mean by wear layer failure - wood collapsing internally? Wood worn away by use?


 
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Brad

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Subject : RE: Engineered Flooring Q
Posted : 2010-01-29 9:56 PM
Post #35890 - In reply to #35888

Don, the trick is trying to find a test that represents years of abuse. It is very possible that the finish might wear off or be chipped off in areas leaving the wear layer unprotected. Maybe areas will become gouged over the years dropping things? If I only use a light test method, I am quite sure even contact cement would prove to be fine, but I bet we would all agree that CC would not be appropriate. Whenever the topic of one sided veneering or thicker veneers comes up the tendancy is always, no you cannot do that, must be balanced, or else...

A wear layer failure is pretty much only one thing to me. If it comes up off the substrate and I must fix it, that is a failure. Most of all the large engineered flooring co's suggest that it can be sanded 3 to 5 times, and in reality most never do it once before tearing it out during a reno. I know I could re-sand this wear layer at least that before sanding through.


 
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Brad

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Subject : RE: Engineered Flooring Q
Posted : 2010-03-16 6:31 PM
Post #35966 - In reply to #35890

Well since I am such an opinionated fellow I thought I should fess up. Applying a single layer to the substrate was a crappy idea. It worked out in the end, but some of the 5' long pieces cupped up to 1/2" at the ends. A little minor clamping and it the install went fine, but this would have by no means been acceptable to a client. The remainder of the border parts are being made using a three ply method. It is quite a bit more work, but they do stay flat.

Ciao for now.


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