Darryl Keil Last Activity 2025-09-09 11:09 AM
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Steven Kenzer

Posts: 57

Joined: 2008-07-16
Location: Putney, VT

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Subject : Veneered Door Frames
Posted : 2009-05-07 9:15 PM
Post #35398
Thought I'd throw this out there for some feedback. I'm considering, on a kitchen project, combining a frame and panel cabinet door look with slab doors. For argument sake, let's say it's a series of tall uppers, one small door above the lower taller one. The lower tall door would be veneered slab construction (mdf core). The above doors would be Frames with milk white glass panel laid in from behind. I'd like to use the veneer from below for the frames (2 1/2" wide) to keep color and graining consistent. So, the question is..... what are my options? Simply veneer over solid, perhaps a quartered hardwood.... make up 2 1/2" wide stock, edge with same veneer, assuming core stock does not match veneer and then proceed to create frames like any other cabinet door? I realize careful glue up because of limited sanding at joint area. Or, use mdf instead of hardwood, to create frame material (this feels a little funny to me but maybe this is fine?) or.. Press up door rectangle dimension and remove center panel area (router/template work), then veneer edges, inside and out? This seems laborious but perhaps not. Also grain on this technique would be all one direction as opposed to a the frame "look". I'm curious how others have achieved this veneered door frame look. Thanks in advance for any response.


 
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craig tufankjian

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Joined: 2004-02-01
Location: syracuse ny 13208

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Subject : RE: Veneered Door Frames
Posted : 2009-05-07 10:25 PM
Post #35399 - In reply to #35398
Steve,

Mdf would be my first choice but there is limited screwing ability with mdf. Not knowing the cabinet layout, inset or overlay door style, and what hinge your using, cup euro or decorative butt hinges. solid wood would be better for durabilty over time and screwing purposes.

If it were me I would cut strips of mdf, edge band the edges, assemble the frame and then veneer the faces, again not knowing what joint your looking for 45 or butt joint as a finished look.

whatever substrate you use your going to have to edge band the edges first or you'll be staring at a glue line.

If you use a inset flush door style you will have to be dead on and perfectly square. no wiggle room with a slab veneered door. you can leave two edges of the door without edge band, fit the door then edge band. edge band the top and hinge side, leaving the other two for fitting.

If you do assemble the frame then veneer the faces you will have to reverse your assembly process so the veneer joints don't line up with the frame joints.

Of course If the doors are overlay disregard the above .

Just my two cents... I take that back, my "one cent" as I could use the extra penny.

Craig


 
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ckurak

Posts: 107

Joined: 2006-10-28
Location: Florida

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Subject : RE: Veneered Door Frames
Posted : 2009-05-07 11:17 PM
Post #35400 - In reply to #35399
Steve,

I agree with Craig on the screwing-capability of MDF. Or, should I say lack of it. Screws and MDF don't mix well.

However, if you are using a euro cup hinge, try Blum's INSERTA hinges. Three holes are drilled into the door;one is 35mm, the other two are 8mm. The INSERTA hinge slips into the three holes, then the cover is closed. The hinge is very tightly clamped into place. There are no screws that go into the wood. The hinge can be removed easily by popping open the cover. This cannot be done accidentally, but rather easily with a flat-blade screwdriver in the appropriate location. And, there is no damage to the three holes, so the hinge can be removed and replaced numerous times (if necessary) without any loss of holding power. You cannot do that with screws.




 
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Steven Kenzer

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Joined: 2008-07-16
Location: Putney, VT

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Subject : RE: Veneered Door Frames
Posted : 2009-05-08 6:12 AM
Post #35401 - In reply to #35399
Thanks all...appreciate it. Fortunately, this is a full overlay job so I'm not dealing with the screwing issue...euro hinges throughout. I realized, after I wrote last night, that a traditional frame (square butt joint) would need to deal with "end grain" of one of the frame members, thus thinking a miter would be best on the substrate. Craig, so are you saying you would tape up the veneer frames and apply this assembly carefully to the substrate? One side at a time? It didn't occur to me to offset the substrate joint with the veneer joint..thanks for that heads up..makes perfect sense. If the substrate frame is mitered, I would assume there should be no issue with a veneered butt joint applied to this. I do wonder though about the miter or offset butt joint telegraphing through. That would be a drag to eventually read that....any thoughts there? Cross banding is always a solution but that really adds to the labor factor. Maybe that's the only guarantee of avoiding telegraphing or maybe mdf, being so stable, this would not be an issue?

SK




 
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craig tufankjian

Posts: 308

Joined: 2004-02-01
Location: syracuse ny 13208

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Subject : RE: Veneered Door Frames
Posted : 2009-05-08 11:01 AM
Post #35402 - In reply to #35401
Steve,

I'll have to resort to the visual aid for this one. see photo attached:


from the top, red being vertical members, and yellow horizontal.

#1 of course is the traditional method of making a face frame which would put your veneer joints in line with the face frame if you butt joint the veneer lay ups.


#2 is the reverse method and of course and would be appropriate to keep the veneer joints staggered

#3 the miter joint.... lining up everything would be a consideration for me , as well as the delicate corners.


#4 the Haunched miter is the best of both worlds. it puts the butt joint in the center of the frame and reduces the miter by half. you can pocket screw the miter from the back of the frame and drive a 2 inch screw in the edge grain for the butt joint.

as for having to veneer small end grain this can be eliminated for joints 2&4. on joint #2 edge band both side of your horizontal member and only the inside of your horizontal members. after the frame is assembled you can veneer the vertical members as a whole unit going right over the small end grain.

joint #4 would have both side of the vertical members veneered and the horizontal would be done after assembly of the frame.

not knowing the lay out of the cabinetry it's hard to say what the approch to veneering would be . if you have repetative frame sizes you can make a jig that can be put in the vacupress to register the veneer exactly where you want it every time. you may even consider the cabinets as a whole and the face frame as well. one carcass, one face frame giving the illusion of a bank of cabinets.

If you go with a jig I'll attach a drawing later.


http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg28/customone/jointassembly.jpg


Craig




 
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craig tufankjian

Posts: 308

Joined: 2004-02-01
Location: syracuse ny 13208

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Subject : RE: Veneered Door Frames
Posted : 2009-05-08 12:24 PM
Post #35403 - In reply to #35398
Steve ,
attached is a drawing of the jig.


from the top. first is the caul. second is the face frame ,third is the veneer lay up and fourth the jig.

the jig traps the veneer lay up at exact locations, next apply glue to the face frame and lay that on the veneer, the red strips are nothing more that shims made from 1/16 th laminate, these are slipped on the sides of the face frame to register the frame exactly on the veneer. if the face frame is 2 1/2 the veneer strips should be 2 5/8 ths.

you may want to fill the void with scrap as the bag may push the caul down in the center.

I assume all the heights are the same and you can alter the jig strips at the top and bottom to accommodate varying widths


http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg28/customone/jig.jpg


 
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Steven Kenzer

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Joined: 2008-07-16
Location: Putney, VT

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Subject : RE: Veneered Door Frames
Posted : 2009-05-08 1:24 PM
Post #35405 - In reply to #35403
Thanks, Craig. One slight line of confusion.....These are actually doors, not face frames. They'll be full overlay doors with white glass panels inserted from the rear, this is more traditional joinery (maybe loose tenons), not pocket screws. The jig is great in terms of keeping alignment. I'm leaning towards butting the mdf frame and opposing the joints but again.....do you think they're might be telegraphing issues with the mdf butt joint (or miter joint)?


 
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craig tufankjian

Posts: 308

Joined: 2004-02-01
Location: syracuse ny 13208

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Subject : RE: Veneered Door Frames
Posted : 2009-05-08 3:43 PM
Post #35406 - In reply to #35405
Steve,

Ok... face frame, door frame, picture frame, it's all the same thing. LOL
I've never had anything telegraph with MDF. Wood, yes. But never with something as small as 2 1/2 wide.

I would think that the door and the weight of the glass would possibly rack the door frame on a miter style as opposed to a butt joint.

Craig


 
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Steven Kenzer

Posts: 57

Joined: 2008-07-16
Location: Putney, VT

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Subject : RE: Veneered Door Frames
Posted : 2009-05-08 3:58 PM
Post #35407 - In reply to #35406
Thanks, Craig....as always, I appreciate your expertise.

S


 
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Gerry

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Joined: 2008-08-10

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Subject : RE: Veneered Door Frames
Posted : 2009-05-09 9:39 AM
Post #35410 - In reply to #35398
I made some frame doors for my kitchen. Flamed Birch veneer on MDF, ripped into strips, and added 1/8" hardwood edges. Then mitered and glued up, using biscuits at the corners. Very time consuming, but I like the way they came out. Used Inserta hinges, too, btw.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=34886&d=1175825236
Gerry
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